The turmoil of a submissive man.

First and foremost I want to clarify that I am not referring to anything related to sadism or whatever else of the like when I refer to "submissive" and in fact sexual interaction is not the main point of this post at all so please, keep your cute comments to yourself.

That aside, I am a 20 year old male who has developed to be quite different from the "norm" I see expressed by most around me, I'm shy, gentle and lack of a better term: severely emotional. As such, I can't put on the macho bravado and am much against that actually, despite what others think I'm proud of my personality.

However as much apathy I can withhold about general social acceptance there's something I cannot help but constantly worry about: finding a relationship.

So as I'm sure most of you have guessed: I am attracted to more aggressive and "dominant" woman. I often dream of a tall confident woman coming and sweeping me off my feet in fact. And while I don't want to be controlled per say... put it this way: If a point in my marriage came along where I had to stay home and take care of the house while she worked, I'd be fine with that.

This worries me because as far as I can see: it's the norm that the man should inniate everything: he should be the one to ask for a date, he needs to be the mighty guardian, and heaven forbid if he's not the one to propose. Frankly, I don't think I can do that, all the friends I have now came to me first and really trying to do such a thing just because it's "normal" I think is just asking for disaster.

So why is it so necessary? I thought woman on a whole preferred a man who wasn't full of it. There for I should be able to be myself.. yet every person, man and woman alike, that I have tried to discuss this with has stated that such ideas are simply "not right" and offer no insight on how.

Perhaps I am just talking to the wrong people, but this seems such a taboo I'm getting rather frustrated. I really don't want to believe I have to start hunting for woman like they're animals, yet I get so much resistance to the idea of desired outright by a woman that I can't help but wonder if this is a fantasy I may have to let go.

I suppose there's also the fact that there may be possibly too much against me. Mainly: my height. Being 5' 2" I seem to make most woman uncomfortable when I wish to speak of my emotions, or ideas of relationships etc. It's as if one who is taller than me (most of them are in fact) I am not allowed to express myself, let alone show interest in them. Add this to the fact I tend to be more meek than most men and I suppose from such a perspective I must seem even less desirable. As shallow as that seems to me it seems too much of a barrier to be ignored.

Getting to the bottom line: I'm afraid that continuing to by myself and relying on the old "Oh the right one will come along" I may just be dooming myself to obscurity, yet I don't have the confidence to be the aggressor instead. I'm guessing there may be a happy medium I should search for.

I appreciate any insight someone may have on this issue. However, laying someone like this in the open on the internet is taking a huge deal of courage, so please, be kind... Thank you.

I think you need to be more confident in yourself. It seems like a lack of confidence is what's holding you back from to "be the aggressor." Do you simply not want to be the aggressor or do you think that you can't be the aggressor?

You want an Amazon-woman. Shrug. Did you see my 'dom' comment in the other thread?

Tell us more about your life otherwise. I bet you are in some high-stress job where you have to be responsible all the time. What you want isn't uncommon, you know. A surprising LOT of men in high-powered jobs want a dominant woman to take charge sexually. Its the only way they know how to relax. There are women who will accomodate you, at least some of the time.

EDIT - sorry, missed your point about this not being about sex. Tho I think that it will be, at some point. So I'll leave my post for you to think about.

You need to find a butch dyke.

Nah. He wants to be married, not deal with the drama of a bisexual dyke. He sounds pretty traditional, to me.

Personman, I am assuming you are hetero & not confused about your sexuality. That said, there are women who would find a guy like you attractive. Provided you aren't a complete wuss. Even couples who have relationships where the woman is dominant, the man is still MANLY, except in certain situations. Get me?

You should read the science fiction Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold. Young Miles (the protagonist) is a very intelligent, 'height-challenged' character whose females tend toward the Amazon. I think you'd enjoy them. ;

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga[/url]

i was married to a shorter guy.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So as I'm sure most of you have guessed: I am attracted to more aggressive and "dominant" woman. I often dream of a tall confident woman coming and sweeping me off my feet in fact.

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Most likely, it's not going to happen

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So why is it so necessary? I thought woman on a whole preferred a man who wasn't full of it.

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I think you are confuisng "being full of it" with being confident. I think it was already mentioned that you probably lack confidence and posibly have issues with self esteem. Lacking these is not very attractive (as you might now yourself, since you are looking for a confident woman). Being confident doesn't mean you have to be full of bravado, it means you are not scared, you are not wimpy you are proud of you are and you are confident both in yourself and in your future. You can be a genuinely good person and do nice things and at the same time be confident they are not mutually exclusive.

As far as your question "why is it necessary for a guy to initiate", well where do I begin. Taking all the cultural, traditional and peer pressure components aside (which in themselves are huge motivators of our behaviour) I think men and women just have different roles genetically. For example, women give birth to children, men can't do that. Is it fair or unfair? That's not important, we are just desgined that way.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Nah. He wants to be married, not deal with the drama of a bisexual dyke. He sounds pretty traditional, to me.

Personman, I am assuming you are hetero & not confused about your sexuality. That said, there are women who would find a guy like you attractive. Provided you aren't a complete wuss. Even couples who have relationships where the woman is dominant, the man is still MANLY, except in certain situations. Get me?

You should read the science fiction Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold. Young Miles (the protagonist) is a very intelligent, 'height-challenged' character whose females tend toward the Amazon. I think you'd enjoy them. ;

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Correct, I shudder at the thought really. And further correct, I don't wish to be someone's pet, the only reason I stated that I'll would be comfortable staying at home is for the sake of her happily pursuing her carer, not because I'm too afraid to provide for the family. And even if I'm more physically weak than her, I will jump in front of a bullet for her regardless. That's all it takes to be a man in my mind.

And I do in fact enjoy science fiction, I'll definitely mill over that, thank you.

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Do you simply not want to be the aggressor or do you think that you can't be the aggressor?

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I was going to say both, but think it's more I just don't want to. The way I'm thinking: You can hammer a nail with end of a shoe, but it'll never do a good of a job as a hammer itself.

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I think you are confuisng "being full of it" with being confident. I think it was already mentioned that you probably lack confidence and posibly have issues with self esteem. Lacking these is not very attractive (as you might now yourself, since you are looking for a confident woman). Being confident doesn't mean you have to be full of bravado, it means you are not scared, you are not wimpy you are proud of you are and you are confident both in yourself and in your future. You can be a genuinely good person and do nice things and at the same time be confident they are not mutually exclusive.

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I'm not so sure, because I am confident in myself by that definition. I know I have alot to offer and I am not scared of who I am and present myself as I see fit. I fear that everyone else is afraid of me. As I mentioned earlier, I attempt to express my feelings and ideas because I am confident in them, it is they who reject them, so much that now I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong.

Well, as in all partnerships, you will need to consider what you will bring to the table for a woman like that. Just like how most men are no longer looking for a house slave, you will need to consider what you be able to offer such a dominant woman. Will you be educated? Able to offer her intelligent companionship? A responsible parent for her children? Valuable input on life's decisions? Someone she can lean on emotionally? These traits require a certain strength of character. Don't think for a moment that a high-powered woman will simply take you under her wing. You will need to be able to give her the things she wants also.

Anyway, you are young yet, so I would focus on Mish's points about confidence & self-esteem. Grow for yourself, and the relationship stuff will come later. But think about what I've said. What you want, while seemly a simple role-reversal, isn't a simple as it first seems. Think Hillary Clinton, or Maggie Thatcher, or Elizabeth II and the roles their males have in their lives.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I was going to say both, but think it's more I just don't want to. The way I'm thinking: You can hammer a nail with end of a shoe, but it'll never do as good of a job as a hammer itself.

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But unlike the shoe, the man can change. A shoe cannot change itself into a hammer, and likewise a hammer can not change itself into a shoe. You can change yourself into the aggressor. I think the biggest issue, is why do you not want to be the aggressor? It's not really a matter of can or cannot, you can. But you won't be able to if you don't want to.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I'm not so sure, because I am confident in myself by that definition. I know I have alot to offer and I am not scared of who I am and present myself as I see fit. I fear that everyone else is afraid of me.

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I'm sorry to say this, but this is sliding down the edge of paranoia and sociaphobia.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

As I mentioned earlier, I attempt to express my feelings and ideas because I am confident in them, it is they who reject them, so much that now I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong.

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Can you give an example of expressing your feeling and ideas and being unjustifably rejected for it? How often does this occur? And how do you attempt to fix the situation?

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

That aside, I am a 20 year old male who has developed to be quite different from the "norm" I see expressed by most around me, I'm shy, gentle and lack of a better term: severely emotional. As such, I can't put on the macho bravado and am much against that actually, despite what others think I'm proud of my personality.

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You sound an awful lot like my current boyfriend... he too is gentle and emotional. However, life has forced him to toughen up (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) in that he is not nearly so shy and doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeves (at least, not to a great extent).

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So as I'm sure most of you have guessed: I am attracted to more aggressive and "dominant" woman. I often dream of a tall confident woman coming and sweeping me off my feet in fact. And while I don't want to be controlled per say... put it this way: If a point in my marriage came along where I had to stay home and take care of the house while she worked, I'd be fine with that.

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Once more... using my boyfriend as a reference... he had sought out aggressive and dominant women in the past but always felt they lacked emotional understanding. I don't view myself as aggressive (but I can be ambitious at times) and I strive for equality more than dominance... however I can be emotionally distant at times (yet willing to share when asked) and take charge when necessary (but willing to follow too). He wouldn't mind staying home and taking care of the house... but understands that in today's society... both need to be earning an income for the sake of stability.

With this said, I think you may find later on... that you will have to be more assertive, save your emotions for someone who can appreciate them, and perhaps a woman who is occasionally aggressive and dominant may suffice.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

This worries me because as far as I can see: it's the norm that the man should inniate everything: he should be the one to ask for a date, he needs to be the mighty guardian, and heaven forbid if he's not the one to propose. Frankly, I don't think I can do that, all the friends I have now came to me first and really trying to do such a thing just because it's "normal" I think is just asking for disaster.

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Norm or not... I have been the one to 'initiate' by asking guys out. They may have been taken aback at first... even had a few refuse only to find out they were 'uncomfortable' later on. But the roles in regards to the dating game are becoming more lax.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So why is it so necessary? I thought woman on a whole preferred a man who wasn't full of it. There for I should be able to be myself.. yet every person, man and woman alike, that I have tried to discuss this with has stated that such ideas are simply "not right" and offer no insight on how.

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This is just an opinion... an attempt at understanding... but I feel that women have a natural inclination to want a 'protector' and so we innately search for those qualities in men. Someone assertive and confident. Though sometimes these qualities aren't enough... or they're seemingly over-rated. A guy who isn't full of it is a plus. You will have to be patient, in that though it is becoming more acceptable for the male to play a submissive role... such a concept is still unknown to quite a few women. These women may not understand your approach or what they should do.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Perhaps I am just talking to the wrong people, but this seems such a taboo I'm getting rather frustrated. I really don't want to believe I have to start hunting for woman like they're animals, yet I get so much resistance to the idea of desired outright by a woman that I can't help but wonder if this is a fantasy I may have to let go.

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You won't have to hunt for women like they're animals... if you notice a woman who interests you or takes an interest you, there is nothing wrong with approaching. Even 'submissive' women approach men when they're inclined to be more courageous. I don't think this is a fantasy you will have to let go.. but you may have to take a more realistic approach -- sometimes the women come to you... sometimes you have to go to the women.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I suppose there's also the fact that there may be possibly too much against me. Mainly: my height. Being 5' 2" I seem to make most woman uncomfortable when I wish to speak of my emotions, or ideas of relationships etc. It's as if one who is taller than me (most of them are in fact) I am not allowed to express myself, let alone show interest in them. Add this to the fact I tend to be more meek than most men and I suppose from such a perspective I must seem even less desirable. As shallow as that seems to me it seems too much of a barrier to be ignored.

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Height can be a problem... especially for those of a shallower mind. The only way I've found that compensates for lack of height (I'm 5'2 as well) is to speak up and be noticed. Most people's first impression of me is as this meek and quiet person... until I start talking. Then I'm animated and grab their attention. I'm not aggressive, but I do know how to carry on a conversation and keep it interesting. So you may have to speak up and show the women what you have to offer, which anyone (man or woman) will have to do anyway... regardless of height.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Getting to the bottom line: I'm afraid that continuing to by myself and relying on the old "Oh the right one will come along" I may just be dooming myself to obscurity, yet I don't have the confidence to be the aggressor instead. I'm guessing there may be a happy medium I should search for.

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I think you fear having to be the 'aggressor' all the time... and you don't have to be. You can be gentle yet assertive. I do believe you will have to find a more happy medium.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I'm sorry to say this, but this is sliding down the edge of paranoia and sociaphobia.

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Well with the often rejection and even hostility I get from other I don't know what else I'm supposed to think.

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Can you give an example of expressing your feeling and ideas and being unjustifably rejected for it? How often does this occur? And how do you attempt to fix the situation?

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As I said: Just about every person I have spoken to about it has said no or refused to even discuss it, even my parents. These are the things I usually hear:

When speaking to other men: "It means your weak." "She'll control your life." "Forget all that just get her in bed and get out."

For one I find the "weak" argument flawed. Just because I don't do things first, or am not taller or whatever doesn't make me weak at all. The fact I have the wisdom to not be intimidated by such things I think makes me stronger in fact. I see the "just sex" response as a means to get me to drop it.

Most of the time I speak to woman about it: "That's not right" "That's creepy" often I am told to "Grow up".

I'm not sure what to do to fix it per say, I don't like to argue so I figure if they are that quick to shut me up I won't change their opinion, so I'll just make sure they know it and move on.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

you will need to consider what you be able to offer such a dominant woman. Will you be educated? Able to offer her intelligent companionship? A responsible parent for her children? Valuable input on life's decisions? Someone she can lean on emotionally? These traits require a certain strength of character. Don't think for a moment that a high-powered woman will simply take you under her wing. You will need to be able to give her the things she wants also.

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I like the fact that you opened that up with "as in all partnerships" ,that's what I want in a woman: a partner, and I want to be a partner to her, mostly with the things you mentioned.

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Anyway, you are young yet, so I would focus on Mish's points about confidence & self-esteem. Grow for yourself, and the relationship stuff will come later.

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This is true, I'm in no hurry to grow up and I've got my hands full with college as is. I just felt I need to know if I should look for such things in the future.



@Aeradalia, I really apriceate the insight, appear I should try and strike a bit more of a balance then, and that I can agree with wholeheartedly. Perhaps what has been happening is I've been taking the idea of changing to too much of an extreme (though I don't think I can be blamed for that) and like TheGreek said, I can change. Looks like it's becoming clear that's my solution, or perhaps the first part of it.

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Originally Posted by personman [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Most of the time I speak to woman about it: "That's not right" "That's creepy" often I am told to "Grow up".

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The said respopnses can be either justified or not justified by the context of the conversation. Can you give me an example of a conversation the conclusion of which prompted a girl to say "That's not right" "That's creepy" or to "Grow up"?

The right one will eventually come along and sweep you off your feet. The thing is, you gotta be on your feet when she does it.

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Originally Posted by Aeradalia [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

... You can be gentle yet assertive. I do believe you will have to find a more happy medium.

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That's a perfect way to put it.

Carl.

In other words, he should stop whining. :D

To be quite frank with you, I interprete a man who isn't willing to be straighforward about pursuing me to be rather full of himself. Being "shy" to pursue a women is being so absorb in himself, he can't have fun, in my opinion.

Being straighforward about asking a women out is not full of himself, it's just being honest.

And don't worry about your height. Its about the whole package.