Do you think that service is beneficial to young men?
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Do you think that service is beneficial to young men?
It was for me.
how old are you now?
The ripe ol' age of 33. :)
great, how do you think it was beneficial for you?
I had a good friend who drank himself out of college around 9/11 and decided to join the Army. He's more of a drunk now after the fact.
However, I do know a few misfit guys from high school who came from families where they couldn't afford college and the guys were the best scholars so its not like they'd be getting any free money for college likely. Some of them have done quite well for themselves, become really good leaders and are doing pretty decent financially.
so it is beneficial for most?Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenofCorona [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I think it depends on the country. Service in compulsory Russian army for example is detrimental to everyone's health. One of my friends served in Australian army reserve though and that was a beneficial experience for him. His life was never threatened, but he did get a lot of discipline out of it and he actually really enjoyed the experience. It can be beneficial if done right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrisa [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
exactly, that was my argument at the Russian forum. they were all saying that Army makes REAL men out of guys, and I was totally against. Russian army can't give nothing to its men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Depends on what the person wants to get out of the experience. Also obviously what they've seen during their time of service. I think the drunk guy I know had alcohol issues before he was deployed but uses alcohol as a Band Aid for what he's seen and had to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrisa [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
This is slightly off the subject, but it still addresses the question.
I think everyone should be required to put in two years of public service after high school. This could be the army, it could be building housing for the poor, it could be something like Fras did in Americorps, but you would have to do it and you would have to live with your fellow public servants and work hard. I think this might really cut down on the asshole behavior so many kids engage in.
I'm pretty sure it would have helped me.
lol, Giga.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigabitch [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
but seriously, being in an army increases your chances of getting killed, traumatized.
for many it's a waste of time since they could be 2 years closer towards achieving their educational goal.
The real question is... is the Army good for our country?
Anyways, I completely disagree with Giga. Community service is for retired old women and premed whores like me
Young people would be benefiting society more by focusing on their own aspirations. Microsoft and Apple weren't founded as charity organizations, and it is economic development like that which make this country prosperous
I think it's silly that they said that, perhaps they wanted to be chauvinistic which is not uncommon in that part of the world. Maybe they haven't had their sons tortured by dedovshina, maybe their sons didn't commit suicide due to the appalling condition of the Russian army. Maybe they didn't have any sons to begin with and are just talking out of their ass. You could bring some statistics to shut them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrisa [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I can't tell you what you want to hear. Not if you're trying to build up ammo for an argument on a Russian forum. The videos I've seen of Russian recruits being hazed are horrible. In the U.S. (And I'm sure in most countries) you get broken down in bootcamp so they can build you back up stronger and smarter than you were before. That doesn't seem to be the case in the Russian army, where the young kids are treated like shit from the beginning, and that never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrisa [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I think it depends on the person.
I would be a horrible candidate for the army. I couldn't handle their idea of structure and discipline. I think it's a good place for a person that lacks those things in their life.
I was initially aiming to join the swedish army (everyone has to apply for the universal conscription, but only 10-15% is actually selected, so if you clarify that you're not interested you most likely won't have to) as a means to take a year off before deciding where I wanted to go to uni at (11 months when including international training, option open to pursue a helicopter piloting career).
At least there it's a good thing, the likelihood of being dragged into a senseless war is practically null, everyone who's there are there intentionally as while you make money it's not on a "job" level, and the practical experience/ discipline / physical training / social experience is pretty damn good, can even make a career out of it if its to your liking.
Won't know how it would've panned out, I wasn't allowed to apply as it was first delayed since I was living in sri lanka, and then I was exempted because budget cutbacks slashed 50% of the applicants, and when I could apply again I was overseas once more.
As a former Army officer, I can say, that it is as beneficial as you make it. If you go into the Military and do your duty and take advantage of the educational opportunities, it can be very good for a young man's future. Unless, of course, you get KIA.
I don't think it's feasible. All my friends who are thinking about dropping out of college are considering military with a hint of optimism. All my friends who are in the army (One in artillery who has been in Kuwait, came home for Christmas to see his newborn baby boy) think it's a pile of shit. Recruiters are doing a good job of keeping interest. They paint a turd as if it's golden, you know. That's why everybody thinks it's a good idea at first.
Then again, some of my friends from other countries had to enlist in the army for 1-4 years. It was mandatory for them. Luckily we have a choice as citizens of the USA to choose.
Hehe now in Poland You don`t have to go to the army. They want just pro`s now. But it changed just 1-2 years ago . Anyway,none of my brothers went to the army. The oldest one payed for school till the moment he was too old for army .Middle one was doing studies plus he broke his arm really bad at the high school so he didn`t get category A = didn`t have to go to the army... The youngest brother used third solution to avoid army by applying for a social job . He needed to find a really good reason why he didn`t want to be a soldier and my dad wrote this letter saying he`s a christian and it`s against his beliefs to kill people which he would have to do in case of a war ,because if he didn`t do the order it could cause him death. It worked,they even didn`t ask further questions... My brother said there were a lots of big guys who tried to say bullshit like they are pacifists etc... Of course they didn`t get the job.
My father was a professional soldier enough for us all. It also destroyed his health enough for us all. If someone wants to join the army really bad, why not, it`s just stupid that some countries force their citizens to do it... I understand if there is a war, I would probably join the army myself :)
And if it`s beneficial? It has its pros and cons ... I think more cons especially in a war time...
It looks like Russia and Israel have the screwed up mandatory service in the army.
Universal service is a good idea. But you have to make it truly universal. Every citizen should go for training, the rich as well as the poor.
what's the point though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryville [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If the sons and daughters of the rich had to serve, then maybe their parents wouldn't be so anxious to get our country into Wars.
Actually there are bigger things than children... Some people consider money and ideas more important than their own children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryville [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
My US Army service in the reserves was very beneficial.
I agree, AmeriCorps could also be beneficial, but you know...there's nothing like signing on the dotted line and essentially saying, "My life for my country's values." Hopefully, it doesn't come down to that--hopefully, as General Patton would say about war, you make the other poor bastard die for his country.
That's easy for you to say , Cam. I've actually had to MAKE the "other poor bastard", die for his country, and then see the results. I'm not very Glib about death.
I agree with Perryville and mandatory service, although I lean more towards reinstating the draft. So many of the people in this country that were gung-ho for invading Iraq may have kept their mouth shut if their own ass was on the line.
Well, nobody would want to be glib about death, particularly when one has a disease that will eventually kill them. I'm glad to be alive---aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryville [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
As far as civil and military service goes, that's actually an area that I've researched for more than a decade.
Perry...I'm not totally ignorant of what you went through. A good book: "War is Racket" by Smedley Butler, USMC. He won the Congressional Medal of Honor twice. He became a total pacifist...thought it did terrible things to young people's minds and bodies.
The link: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/War-Racket-Antiwar-Americas-Decorated/dp/0922915865/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262895892&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier (9780922915866): Smedley D. Butler: Books[/ame]
It used to be like that during Monarchy. What usually happened was all the rich kids got the top spots of commanding officers, lieutenants, captains and generals and the rest of the soldiers became their personal servants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryville [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If I were queen, it wouldn't be like that. Everyone would start out at the bottom. Only career military would be officers.
Don't think AmeriCorps is exempt from tragedy. There are 2 people I had met that died during their AmeriCorps*National Civilian Community Corps term. One of which was married and had children. Shit happens. No, it may not be from bullets, but if you think about it, that's even worse because nobody expects it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't believe programs like NCCC should be mandatory because there are too many slackers out there that would ruin the program (the way it is setup now). I was lucky to be part of a very dedicated, hard working team. We set much of the drama and bullshit aside and busted our asses off. Unfortunately, I met other teams that weren't so committed to their service.
NCCC was a good example of gender equality. The shortest, and probably weakest girl on our team stepped up to be a chain sawyer with me. We were both trained in felling trees, and maybe she wasn't as strong or fast, but she could still do the work.
Like I said, I don't believe in mandatory service. It would be ideal if we could shift our cultural values to embrace various forms of public service. Some schools press college very hard, other schools, especially rural and poorer high schools press military service. Volunteer service programs are often forgotten. Which is in part due to a lack of funds to sufficiently market them.
Having knowledge about a subject, isn't the same as experiencing it. Reading about War, watching documentaries, Movies or TV programs tells you nothing about the human cost, so sorry Cam you KNOW nothing.
Okay, have your way. There's no point in arguing with the closed mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryville [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Taking the stringent position that expertise comes only from experiencing events is nothing medieval anti-intellectual crap.
I grew up with Vietnam vets that said the same stuff. Nobody could understand them. They were angry at us for not understanding but then told us we weren't qualified to understand.
What I found particularly amusing was that the Vietnam guys were telling us this stuff (above) and meanwhile we had the African-Americans telling all of us the same thing but from their point of view--we should understand them, but we couldn't because, in their view, as non-blacks we weren't capable). And, then we had the women's movement telling us the same thing.
Perry...want to live on island by yourself where nobody is capable of understanding you? If so, go do it. But please don't inform us of your special status, essentially beg for recognition, and then slam the door in our face. That's BS.
My ability to "understand" wasn't built around watching t.v. or movies.
You really ought to read "War is a Racket"--it was written by a soldier...but you didn't read my suggestion. You were just looking to lash out.
BTW...you did notice that nobody is questioning your claimed credentials.
Agreed. We had an 18 year old kid die of heat stroke during a 5 mile march just a few weeks before leaving for Iraq. Somehow that seems more tragic than dying in combat. I can't even imagine being his parents and getting that kind of news.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
He doesn't have a closed mind. Just like the vets you mentioned, you really can't understand unless you've been there. And just like the vets said, you don't rate to hear about it. You can argue the point till you're blue in the face, but Perry is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Correction.. He was a Marine.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yes, he was a Marine. I stand corrected.
If understanding=experiencing the ugliness of war, then fine...I will never walk in his boots.
Like I said before, this technique is used to shut down any discussion and that's fine.
I volunteered and served in the Army. Perry, I don't feel guilty because I wasn't on a battlefield...I know that what this pissing contest is all about because it is regular occurrence. I don't think that tarnishes my service commitment. I admire anyone who has served, although I'm sure that you would tell me that I'm not worthy or capable of admiring you so I should just give up trying, right?
Discussion ended.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWqT8Rljt_8"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]
Yebo.
I can say with all honestly that's not the case. It's just too much work. I'd have to write a book, have you read it, and then we can start talking. It's a lot easier to go to the local VFW, and discus these kinds of issues with men and women that are already on my level.Quote:
Like I said before, this technique is used to shut down any discussion and that's fine.