Gender equality

If gender equality is the ultimate goal, why split ourselves into different movements?

Why can't men and women work together under one movement to improve men and women's rights?

What is feminism's justification for focusing mainly on women's rights if gender equality is the ultimate goal?

Let's say I have two glasses, glass A and B. A has more water than B initially. So a group of people fill B with water while neglecting A. The end result is that B has more water than A because they kept filling glass B with water and didn't fill glass A at all to create balance/equality.

Surely, if feminism continues to focus on women's rights while neglecting men's, their end goal is female supremacy, not gender equality?

Is it so difficult for men and women to form a movement that will address both men and women's issues?

??? This is an example of a wrong question. You can't expect to get intelligent answers.

Women need to go topless then if you expect total equality.

I agree with Indi.

If only we could go topless without guys ogling us like creeps! Admiring is one thing, staring like dogs in heat is another. Makes me uncomfortable and it's degrading. Not to mention all the creeps who would justify rape by the always-fresh excuse "she was practically begging for it, I mean look at her!".

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Originally Posted by searock [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I agree with Indi.

If only we could go topless without guys ogling us like creeps! Admiring is one thing, staring like dogs in heat is another. Makes me uncomfortable and it's degrading. Not to mention all the creeps who would justify rape by the always-fresh excuse "she was practically begging for it, I mean look at her!".

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Ummmm I was trying to be funny about it because 14 women in Vancouver yesterday went topless. Apparently it was go topless day yesterday to support gender rights. It's the dumbest thing a woman could do for there were men taking pictures of them for obvious reasons. That is not how women need to be equal.... stupid c unts.

btw.....rape has nothing to do with this topic. I'm bashing women not men here.

The topless women issue is all about conditioning. If our society decides to go topless, the staring will stop after probably 5-10 years. Just look at the pockets of tribal society that still exist in which the women are topless by default. Once it is the accepted norm, things will be fine. But of course there will be plenty of issues in the transitional period.

For now, you can count on me to ogle. :P

No it took women centuries to earn rights instead of being treated like chattel....taking off our tops is a thousand steps backwards.

"Just look at the pockets of tribal society that still exist in which the women are topless by default."

Ok what about the pockets of tribes where the men don't cover their dicks....does that mean we could be conditioned in about 5 years to accept it? F uck no. Tribal life is not modern life....we have advanced this way for a reason.

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Originally Posted by smackie9 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Ummmm I was trying to be funny about it because 14 women in Vancouver yesterday went topless. Apparently it was go topless day yesterday to support gender rights. It's the dumbest thing a woman could do for there were men taking pictures of them for obvious reasons. That is not how women need to be equal.... stupid c unts.

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So... why aren't women supposed to be able to go topless without men acting like perverts about it?

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I'm bashing women not men here.

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I know, hence my reply. I do think that "feminist" groups like Femen are getting it all wrong. The message they actually pass is that the only way you can be heard if you're female is to be young, hot and naked. Which is wrong too, because they aren't even getting heard, they're just getting stared at.

I think it's different when the issue of the demonstration is feminism itself. It's like that young blog writer who took a naked picture of herself and posted it online. What she did was extremely brave and powerful, because she did it to fight for gender equality (she lives in a muslim society in which women need to cover themselves). In our society, why shouldn't women be able to go topless? Men do it all the time. Genitals should remain covered purely for hygiene reasons.

Here's an idea why not men just keep their frickin shirts on when on in public (expect on a beach or pool). Most guys I see shouldn't have their shirt off to begin with. There are already restriction when going into establishments, stores, etc. To me seeing a guy walking down the street with his shirt off is out of place.

In the distant future that is where I see it going.

Okay, but as long as men are socially allowed to go topless and women aren't, there is pointless inequality. Either both or neither says I (I personally see nothing wrong with men going topless, even when they're unattractive to me, they're just human bodies, nothing to be ashamed about).

women are stupid to think they can change men.....deal with it they are sexual beings, they are going to look at your tits whether you like it or not. Men don't have tits that's why. men have a penis, we have a vagina, men can't give birth we can we can't be equal period. I don't have an issue with being differnt from men...I sit down when I pee....do I need to pee standing up to be equal? hell no!

Of course we can't be biologically equal. But yes, men can learn not to stare like creeps. Right now they stare at topless women like creeps because they aren't used to it. Give it 10 years and they'll get used to it, like asdfg789 said. Sure they'll still look and admire of course, they just won't stare like creeps anymore. It's normal.

No they can't my god. Women have been trying to get men to stop watching porn...it will never ever happen. Men will always stare a tits period. Yer living a pipe dream.

Smackie, I disagree.

I watched porn a lot more in the past when it was less accessible. I have an active sex life but rarely watch porn now.
Being less accessible made it more exciting then.

I know plenty of women who like to ogle at men's bodies as well. We are just less bothered by it, again perhaps by social conditioning.

So if the sight of women's tits became so commonplace and women themselves can accept the occasional ogling with pride rather than disgust, I don't see why topless women in our society is not possible in 5 or 10 years time. The difficulty lies in the fact that there are so many different cultures and religions that will never agree on what is acceptable.

Perhaps Indi can point to some academic research how tribal societies deal with this ? :)

smackie, I don't get why you always try to make it seem like there's this "us vs them" thing going on between men and women. You're the only one who's talking about women wanting men to change and all that.

In some tribal societies it's perfectly normal for women to walk around topless, and guys don't ogle like creeps all the time simply because they are used to it, so there's nothing necessarily sexual about it. Of course they will see and admire in some cases, but there's a huge difference from seeing and admiring (like most women would see and admire a hot guy's bare upper-body) and being a creep about it (leering, ogling, winking, etc). This thread is not about porn: porn is supposed to be sexual, by definition. Topless women are not.

Nice try....porn is still a billion zillion dollar industry....it will take a catastrophic event, wiping out the human population before that will ever happen.

5 to 10 years to make uncovering acceptable?.....it will take thousands of years of evolution when women loose their breast will going topless will be acceptable.

And you don't have to be religious to not find it acceptable.

Go find some national geographic magazines from the 60's and 70's if you want to see topless tribal women.

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Originally Posted by smackie9 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

5 to 10 years to make uncovering acceptable?.....it will take thousands of years of evolution when women loose their breast will going topless will be acceptable.

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You do realize that during the first decades of the past century women weren't allowed to show their legs in public? Now it's perfectly acceptable and men don't stare like creeps all the time. It's just a matter of habit.

I think everyone should just be nude. It would solve so many problems. Think about all the BS it would bypass.

Haha, I agree. I think everyone should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they want. Actually, I would make it mandatory to keep genitals covered, because of hygiene issues. But that's all.

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Originally Posted by searock [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

smackie, I don't get why you always try to make it seem like there's this "us vs them" thing going on between men and women. You're the only one who's talking about women wanting men to change and all that.

In some tribal societies it's perfectly normal for women to walk around topless, and guys don't ogle like creeps all the time simply because they are used to it, so there's nothing necessarily sexual about it. Of course they will see and admire in some cases, but there's a huge difference from seeing and admiring (like most women would see and admire a hot guy's bare upper-body) and being a creep about it (leering, ogling, winking, etc). This thread is not about porn: porn is supposed to be sexual, by definition. Topless women are not.

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There is a reason why they walk around topless,...it's because of their environment and out of necessity....it's f uckin hot where they live. Also they never had any real access to materials like silk, cotton or hemp to make clothing and they don't have have air conditioning. They live like prehistoric man...if fact they are the closest descendants to prehistoric man. They are not an advanced civilization. If they were they too would be covered up.

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Originally Posted by smackie9 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

There is a reason why they walk around topless,...it's because of their environment and out of necessity....it's f uckin hot where they live. Also they never had any real access to materials like silk, cotton or hemp to make clothing and they don't have have air conditioning. They live like prehistoric man...if fact they are the closest descendants to prehistoric man. They are not an advanced civilization. If they were they too would be covered up.

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Way to miss the point. I'm saying that the guys of those tribes are used to the women walking around topless, so they don't stare like creeps all the time.

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Originally Posted by searock [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You do realize that during the first decades of the past century women weren't allowed to show their legs in public? Now it's perfectly acceptable and men don't stare like creeps all the time. It's just a matter of habit.

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And ankles are just ankles, not a sexual part of the body, breast are...apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by searock [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Way to miss the point. I'm saying that the guys of those tribes are used to the women walking around topless, so they don't stare like creeps all the time.

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Yes because they have been doing it since prehistoric times. They are not an advanced society.

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Originally Posted by smackie9 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yes because they have been doing it since prehistoric times. They are not an advanced society.

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The fact remains that guys who are used to seeing topless women every day will not stare like creeps at them all the time, because they are used to it.

Boobs per se aren't a sexual part of the body - they are only sexual in certain contexts. Just like men's biceps per se aren't sexual, they are only sexual in certain contexts. This is precisely the problem. Women's and men's bodies are not primarily sexual objects to be lusted over. That's just a part of what they are, and this isn't a good excuse for other people to stare, ogle and leer at them.

No one is saying (I'm not, at any rate) that by making it socially normal for women to walk around topless, men will eventually stop being attracted and turned on by boobs of women they are attracted to. They will just stop leering at them like pervs - just like women don't leer at bare-chested men, even when they are attracted to them.

Of course, society right now isn't ready for such a thing to happen. Women's bodies are still viewed primarily as sexual objects. This is what should be changed before there can be any true progress.

Ankles were as sexual as boobs are today. In muslim societies, even a small amount of innocent (to the western eye) womanly flesh can make men horny - because they aren't used to seeing it every day in public. It's just a matter of habit.

I don't want to be treated like a man.

Me neither. I want to be treated like a person.

searock is such a feminist :D

[Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yeah :D I think any sane, decently educated person is a feminist :) (as much as we are anti-racist, same principle)

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Originally Posted by searock [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Haha, I agree. I think everyone should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever they want. Actually, I would make it mandatory to keep genitals covered, because of hygiene issues. But that's all.

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Yeah and perverts.