America, the new Rome?

[Tone]

Ugh, politics...
Ugh, people arguing about politics over the internet...
Ugh.

[shh!]

IKnowEverything: Maybe it is time to consider turning off Fox News and Rush Limbaugh so you can gain a healthy perspective on the situation.

[Innova]

I can sort of see his point, but at the same time this is a war that will never totally be won...as long as humanity exists. It's not hard to figure that out, we are repetitive beings. So while we continue to fight this war, America is exhausting itself, and even bush supporters are starting to grow wiry of it.

[Junket]

most Iraqis would rather have us STAY then leave. [url]http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8403994/[/url]

So, what's your plan then? We cut and run? Because that's what someone who ISN'T "tyrannical" does, right? Speaking of that, you still have failed to demonstrate how Bush is an evil-no-good-tyrant. Grrr...he's bad!

Most Iraqis...used to being ruled by a tyranical leader...now being occupied by arguably the most powerful military force in the world...once asked if they want us there or not...say "yes".

Why would this not surprise me?

Let's look at a couple of factors.

These people are used to being led.

Once Saddam was removed they grew euphoric with all the new found freedom they had.

Good right?

Chaos and anarchy ensued.

Now considering we completely removed any real form of government the US was all they had to depend on to make everything okay.

Not because they really wanted us to, it wouldn't have mattered whether it was US or China or what have you, occupying them. They were looking towards another strong leader and we filled that role.

I believe, a democracy should be instilled by the people.

It's an evolution of government.

Even if this government succeeds, I suspect there will still be a lot or resentment amongst the Iraqi people, within the next coming generations.

They're free...why?

Because of the US.

They can vote now...why?

Because of the US.

They can go to school...why?

Because of the US.

Who do they have to thank for everything?

The US.

The US. The US. The US. The US. The US.

They couldn't have done it without the US right?

Otherwise they would have.

That's how pathetic and inferior they all are.

Seriously now, these people have lived in fear all of their lives.

We drop couple hundred armed troops into their country then ask them if they mind?

What the **** you think they're gonna say?

Excuse me...what the **** do you think the unarmed civilian just tryin' to get by is gonna say?

Maybe this will help you understand better, an excerpt from one of my favorite parts of one of my favorite books "Catch 22":

" I don't believe anything you tell me," Nately replied, with a bashful mitigating smile. "The only thing I do believe is that America is going to win the war."

"You put so much stock in winning wars," the grubby iniquitous old man scoffed. "The real trick is losing wars, in knowing which wars can be lost. Italy has been losing wars for centuries, and just see how splendidly we've done nonetheless. France wins wars and is in a continual state of crisis. Germany loses and prospers. Look at our own recent history. Italy won a war in Ethiopia and promptly stumbled into serious trouble. Victory gave us such insane delusions of grandeur that we helped start a world war we hadn't a chance of winning. But now that we are losing again, everything has taken a turn for the better, and we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated."

Nately gaped at him in undisguised befuddlement. "Now I really don't understand what you're saying. You talk like a madman"

"But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top, and I am an anti-fascist now that he has been deposed. I was fanatically pro-German when the Germans were here to protect us against the Americans, and now that the Americans are here to protect us against Germans I am fanatically pro-American. I can assure you, my outraged young friend"---the old man's knowing, disdainful eyes shone even more effervescently as Nately's stuttering dismay increased---"that you and your country will have no more loyal partisan in Italy than me---but only as long as you remain in Italy"

[Tone]

You guys really get into this don't you.

[IKnowEverything]

Frasbee's whole post

You're still dancing around the question and not giving a straight answer.

We liberated an oppressed nation. Leaders have been appointed by the people. They are currently drafting their constitution. Our presence there is nothing close to ANYTHING tyrannical. Jesus Christ...just admit it.

You are wrong. Period.

[Tone]

You tell 'em!!!!!!!

[Lloyd95]

We liberated an oppressed nation. Leaders have been appointed by the people. They are currently drafting their constitution. Our presence there is nothing close to ANYTHING tyrannical.

Well Yay for us! I guess the mother's of our dead soldiers can sleep better knowing that. And the kids that will never see their dads/moms again.

And when exactly can our troops come home knowing that the above was 100% accomplished? Tomorrow? How far into debt does our nation need to go? A gabazillion dollars?

What happened to WMD,btw?

If you think the above is really our reason for being there, please post such so I can finally never come back and read this thread, you ignorant fool.

[IKnowEverything]

Well Yay for us! I guess the mother's of our dead soldiers can sleep better knowing that. And the kids that will never see their dads/moms again.

And when exactly can our troops come home knowing that the above was 100% accomplished? Tomorrow? How far into debt does our nation need to go? A gabazillion dollars?

What happened to WMD,btw?

If you think the above is really our reason for being there, please post such so I can finally never come back and read this thread, you ignorant fool.

I'm not the one brainwashed by the leftist media...

If you honestly think Saddamn did not possess WMDs, you need to be ****ing slapped. Hmm...evading U.N. weapon sanctions throughout the 90's? WHAT OTHER REASON WOULD HE HAVE TO HIDE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT HE HAD THE GODDAMN WEAPONS?!

Don't you dare go on a rant about how the mother's of the fallen soldiers feel! You have no IDEA! The people you see in Michael Moore's film as well as that woman protesting in Crawford are a SMALL MINORITY in the culture of military families. Every person I've encountered who has a son or daughter in the military is proud of what they're doing and supports their cause. It's a shame that tools like you with your amateur talking-point-banter think this way. You're out of touch, and infected with idiocy.

[url]http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/m-n/mariani/2004/mariani052804.htm[/url]

Why don't you read this and tell me what you think, k? ^


Freedom isn't free, bud. Lives are lost, money is spent, and it's disgusting to those who believe in this cause that you would rather have Saddamn back in power.

[Lloyd95]

First, I didn't see Moore's film, nor do I have the desire to.
Second, when did I ever say I wanted Saddam back in power?

I was all aboard this "war" when WMD were thought to be there and after the events of 9/11 (BTW, I was working 2 blocks away that day and lost 8 guys from my work, so this touches me personally). We didn't find any TRACES of WMD. And don't you think with that cowboy of a man Rumsfeld we would have, or at least make it seem to the people that we did? Our government admitted that they didn't find anything and they were MISTAKEN.

No, I admit, I don't know how the mother of a fallen soldier feels, I'm not a mother.

So if/when we finish in Iraq, we'll just go invade another country with bad leadership and free their people? How about North Korea? Oh, wait, they don't have any oil for us.

[bluesummer]

We liberated an oppressed nation. Leaders have been appointed by the people. They are currently drafting their constitution. Our presence there is nothing close to ANYTHING tyrannical. Jesus Christ...just admit it.

You are wrong. Period.

I think the bottom line is, who gave the U.S. the ****ing job of running around 'liberating countries'? The answer is: no one. That's what the U.N. is for, but apparently the U.S. figures it has the right to tell the U.N. to stick it. And look how they coveniently 'choose' which countries they wish to liberate.....

They don't choose to liberate the Chinese from their communist government that also kills and tortures innocents daily for not following 'the rules'? They don't choose to liberate North Korea from their crazy nucler-obsessed dictator? Turned a blind eye to Rwanda while millions were slaughtered, when they were BEGGING for outside help? No profit in that, though. Oh, didn't choose to 'liberate' Afghanistan from the Taliban until someone attacked THEM. Do you have any idea how many petitions people signed for the UN to intervene on behalf of the women of that country over the years? Oh and of course the biggest kicker of them all: the U.S. staunchly refused to enter WWII because it had nothing to do with them, yet they were making incredible profits off the arms they were producing and selling to Europe. Chose to let millions of people die for SEVEN YEARS. Then Japan drops a couple of bombs on Hawaii and suddenly it becomes personal.

I could go on and on about all the countries the U.S. has so conveniently 'chosen' not to 'liberate'. Don't make the mistake of thinking there is no political/monetary motivation behind these wars. And don't make the mistake of thinking the governement loses too much sleep over the deaths of those poor soldiers. Any of these assumptions would make you naive.

Also don't give me the bullshit redneck crap about how the U.S. is saving the world. They don't come when asked for help, and show up when it's not wanted. And if they want to root out all the terrorists, why just stop at Iraq? There's the whole middle east yet to go, and Africa, and Europe, and Asia, and hey, even North America! Thanks 'World Police'...for jack shit.

[Kiechi]

I think the bottom line is, who gave the U.S. the ****ing job of running around 'liberating countries'? The answer is: no one. That's what the U.N. is for, but apparently the U.S. figures it has the right to tell the U.N. to stick it. And look how they coveniently 'choose' which countries they wish to liberate.....

They don't choose to liberate the Chinese from their communist government that also kills and tortures innocents daily for not following 'the rules'? They don't choose to liberate North Korea from their crazy nucler-obsessed dictator? Turned a blind eye to Rwanda while millions were slaughtered, when they were BEGGING for outside help? No profit in that, though. Oh, didn't choose to 'liberate' Afghanistan from the Taliban until someone attacked THEM. Do you have any idea how many petitions people signed for the UN to intervene on behalf of the women of that country over the years? Oh and of course the biggest kicker of them all: the U.S. staunchly refused to enter WWII because it had nothing to do with them, yet they were making incredible profits off the arms they were producing and selling to Europe. Chose to let millions of people die for SEVEN YEARS. Then Japan drops a couple of bombs on Hawaii and suddenly it becomes personal.

I could go on and on about all the countries the U.S. has so conveniently 'chosen' not to 'liberate'. Don't make the mistake of thinking there is no political/monetary motivation behind these wars. And don't make the mistake of thinking the governement loses too much sleep over the deaths of those poor soldiers. Any of these assumptions would make you naive.

Also don't give me the bullshit redneck crap about how the U.S. is saving the world. They don't come when asked for help, and show up when it's not wanted. And if they want to root out all the terrorists, why just stop at Iraq? There's the whole middle east yet to go, and Africa, and Europe, and Asia, and hey, even North America! Thanks 'World Police'...for jack shit.

Can you kids say "PWNED"?

[Junket]

If freedom...isn't free...then it isn't freedom is it?

You act as if democracy=good.

And that if a country achieves democracy, the means of getting their are irrelevant.

Would it be wrong if we tried to instill a communist government? Or maybe a monarchist government?

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped bein' such a tool of the right wing media.

It makes you look dumb.

WMD's were not found.

Prove that wrong if you will.

Iraq wasn't the only non-democratic country we're at odds with.

Please, list me a few more we should attack.

I know you have a couple in mind.

You do not honestly believe it is possible to kill every terrorist in the world do you?

It doesn't matter if you kill the terrorists, the "source" isn't even a country that houses the terrorists. The source is the idea. The message, the propaganda. Every person is a potential terrorist, whether they have an AK or not.

Every time civilian is accidently shot, injured, or killed. That alone is sufficient reason for that person, or their loved ones to rebel against US soldiers. That's what the rebels use against us.

Yeah so maybe we have "good" intentions. But that doesn't change the fact that dead is dead is dead.

Common sense dude is all I need to know that forcing your ideals on somebody else is not the way to win people over.

I know you've heard this one before too, but I'm gonna use it again.

What would your reaction be if our great nation here was invaded by an outside force?

You could either:

A: ) cooperate and be assimilated

B: ) flee the country

C: ) rebel

Remember now. The invaders want what's best for the people. They can't have people like your brothers or sisters touting rebellion. Sacrifices must be made, BUT, rest assured it's for the greater good for your people. No doubt the outsiders know what's best for us, after all, we were being run by a corrupt, capitalist, christian fanatical government.

[shh!]

Just for the record, the government put into place in Iraq will be based on Sharia (Islamic Law), which means that women will still be oppressed, so there was no "gain" in that area.

[Junket]

Just for the record, the government put into place in Iraq will be based on Sharia (Islamic Law), which means that women will still be oppressed, so there was no "gain" in that area.

Yeah but...it's for their own good. Because America would never do anything unethical...