Is it just me or...

[nomas]

I KNEW it. So I'm still the only decent guy out here, eh?

Which gives me the opportunity to dispense some advice now, ha ha.

You see..this girl I kinda liked (that's code for "i liked her a lot") sorta taught me that certain girls here, girls who tend to be somewhat more conservative than girls in the states..they play this part. I was honest and told her the way I felt..you know my philosophies: kinda be free and not define things, just enjoy each other's company. But she played her "good girls don't do that" part and said she couldn't be that way..it was all formal or nothing. So I decided she was worth it. I played the nice guy role and totally showed her respect...only I lost her because I showed TOO MUCH respect. That's how I feel, anyway. This is what it took for me to learn that most people will play the game. Shit! Gotta play the game. "No" means "maybe", that kind of thing. She wanted me to be the aggressor, see, and I needed to be a little more assertive and kinda "take what I wanted", because it's what she wanted as well, but couldn't admit to it, lest she be branded "not a good girl", you see.

Conclusion: Now I've decided to be more of a go-getter and risk a little bit more. Gotta be more of a bad boy now. So add me back on your list!

Actually..don't do that just yet. I haven't done anything yet!

Good to conversate with you ladies again.

[TDurden]

I don't see a problem with generalizations and the fact that people make generalizations about men doesn't bother me one bit. We've earned those generalizations because of our behavior. But the same is true of women. It's what happens when the most visible members of a group act a certain way.

The fact is though that it's not an excuse. If a woman assumes I'm an emotionally hollow narcissist because I'm a guy, that's her business. It doesn't mean I have to wear my emotions on my sleave to try and prove her wrong. It's my choice on how to respond to that generalization. If you're worried about acting like yourself because you don't want people judging you then that's your problem, not everyone elses.

The world is a harsh place and people can be callous and single minded and that's just something to accept. If that fact causes you to be behave a certain way, then so be it, but dont' pretend like you don't have a choice.



And, because this seems like a good a time as any to point this out...

The argument where women go "why do girls get called sluts when they sleep around but guys don't?"

Look at it this way:

Guy sleeps around. Girls say: man-whore; user
Guys say: nice job!

Girl sleeps around. Girls say: Slut
Guys say: Slut

The point is that the only actual difference is how the members of the same sex treat each other. So to blame men for that reaction is absurd. (For the record, I personally don't care if a girl sleeps around or if a guy does)

[vashti]

The point is that the only actual difference is how the members of the same sex treat each other. So to blame men for that reaction is absurd.

Interesting perception. You have taken women's inclination to be consistant and made it a "bad" thing. Clever.

Nomas - best to risk a little, I always say. Nice to see you back. Don't be a stranger.

[Mouser]

There IS a difference between men being judged by women and women being judged by men; we live in a patriarchal society. It's the same reason there's no such thing as "reverse-racism". It's the same reason people having "straight pride parades" and people claiming that there is a "war on christmas" are missing the point entirely. They have the privilege, they're in charge in our society. So are men.

[misombra]

either way it's true, women are some of the worst to other women. but read my post again, i didn't say men hate women, i said the world hates women.

[anachronistic]

you guys are judgemental little pricks. how's that for a generalization?

It takes one to know one.

[misombra]

you're excused. why don't you go on and watch your porn lilwang...

oh damn you totally changed your post. why oh why didn't i quote you? lol. anyway, it was much more interesting than "takes one to one." ::yawwwwn boooooring::

[anachronistic]

you're excused. why don't you go on and watch your porn lilwang...

What a nonsensical question.

After your calling me a prick, I'm ignoring you.

[misombra]

cool! i kinda like when people ignore me, it means i've made some sort of impact. i'm glad you're mad and your feelings are hurt. now you know how we feel.

by the way, you forgot the 'judgemental' and 'little' part too.

[TDurden]

either way it's true, women are some of the worst to other women. but read my post again, i didn't say men hate women, i said the world hates women.

Touche



Vashti, I wasn't trying to say that that inclination was wrong or bad or that men are right. I was just trying to point out that the slut argument isn't a valid one

[CAM]

i agree with you. it's both ways too though. guys are starting to act really girly. look at the music guys put out these days, it's very whiney and depressing. maybe it has something to do with confused gender roles.

anyway i think you should stick around too cam. i just like to mess with you cause, well that's how i am.

LOL So true about the youth music these days! Most of the young people whom I train at work always tell me that they love the 80's music rather than their own generation's music. Who could blame them?

I think that younger men today are under less pressure to act masculine. I think many of them thinking that using a gun on someone is "manly." Last generation: even the guys who weren't masculine by nature became masculine because if they didn't...they'd get their asses kicked. We used to call the guys that didn't make the cut, so to speak..."sissies." Of course, that isn't a word in our vernacular anymore. If anything, the tough bruisers are punished for being tough guys and the sissies are "understood."

I was a medium build guy but let me tell you...I got tough really quickly. I'll never forget...I beat the living tar out of some guy...while I was being taken to the principal's office, the other guys were patting me on the back! I was so happy that I'd joined the ranks of manhood

[MVPlaya]

Women don't call other women sluts because they necessarily disagree with sexual relations, believe me I've known many women who've thrown the S word around at other women, and I don't have hands enough to count how many they've ****ed themselves. Women call other women "sluts" as a political tool to "brand" them in a social setting. Its a method of getting power over others, making others feel bad, and improving your relative stature. If you think its a definitive commentary on gender roles you're way off base or easily soothed by simple explanations.

This thread has been a hilarious set of bizarre rules men set to establish what it means to them to belong to the male gender. Unsurprisingly, its filled with massive narrowmindedness in terms of culture and timespace. Hansen haircuts were not only accepted but normal throughout the 70's. In many societies, and particularly ancient societies, all men had long hair. Even the Biblical story of Samson and Delilah pictures a long-haired male and refers to his emasculation as a result of losing his prideful hair.

Notions on muscularity defining the male ideal (or George Clooney, like what the **** are you smoking?) seems overly focused on unnaturally muscular men. If you follow just the world of Bodybuilding, you'll notice massive changes in muscle development and size as a result of supplements, scientific discoveries on nutrtion/muscle growth/exercise, and precision equipment that allows the targeting of specific muscle groups. People are becoming more ripped, not because we're getting in touch with our "inner man," but because science is helping us get muscle growth and muscle targeting not available to man several generations ago. Does this mean all men over half a century ago just weren't real men?

Most gender roles are taught and societal. There are numerous African societies that used to be based on projectile hunting (spear, arrow) where the men wear make-up, grow long hair, and adorn themselves with jewelry.

There is nothing innately wrong with not fitting in with "Bod - Body Spray" commercials, Calvin Klein underwear ads, or the latest hair trend on Friends. Its neither male, female, or standard, its overly commercialized nonsense that most younger men (and women) take in and take as gospel.

There are most certainly gender roles that are common within specific societies, from how to flirt, to how to dress, to how to cut your hair, but to assume that these are somehow unchanging roles through the ages that should define men and women across continents, cultures, and centuries is not only narrowminded, but reflects one's inability to cope with different ideas.

-MV

[TDurden]

While I commend your extensive and logical explanation of gender roles in relation to appearance, I think the problem is more to do with behavior and personality.

I attribute the gender role confusion to the early nineties nonsense about how every woman wants a sensitive man. That resulted in a legion of guys believing that being manly was a negative thing causing them to be overly emotional and effeminate.

[jurupa]

i don't get you guys. why is it a generalization only when it's directed at men, but it's totally okay to call women stupid and boring?

Blame the culture we live in.

it just goes to show, the world hates women. maybe that's why women don't want to act like themselves. you guys are judgemental little pricks. how's that for a generalization?

Me judgemental? Uh okay what ever you say.

Agreed. I've been reading this thread with slight disgust. Who cares if people want to act differently from "traditional feminine" or "traditional masculine" stereotypes?

I do to a point. Because without it there will be no structure to society. And I don't want chaos. Not only that it provides clear clean cut "roles" for members of society. Without it you have what is happening today where gender roles are getting mix and there is a clash going on because of this.

Ya'll sound like a bunch of clueless jerks who can't see their own male privilege, so you assume it's not there. Feminism is simply the idea of equality between the sexes. Yes, you can recognize that men and women often have differences, but that doesn't negate the need for equality. The feminist movement hasn't caused "more harm than good", it's knee-jerk reactionary men who are afraid that they're losing power because of it.

You crack me up.

There IS a difference between men being judged by women and women being judged by men; we live in a patriarchal society. It's the same reason there's no such thing as "reverse-racism". It's the same reason people having "straight pride parades" and people claiming that there is a "war on christmas" are missing the point entirely. They have the privilege, they're in charge in our society. So are men.

Should I get you some wine and cheese now or later?

Mouser I am guessing your one of those females that are a bit active in the feminist movement of things. I will keep on saying the feminist movement has done more harm than good, because it has. Back in the day a guy would get "shot" if he did not open a door for a female, now how many guys do you see doing this? But then I hear females complain about guys not opening doors for them and being gentlemen like to them. Well if you want to be treated equally us guys will stop doing such things, so don't complain about it. And it is like this for a lot of things. You females say don't view as meat but as an equal then don't put on clothes that make you look like a piece of meat then, nor act in a manner that will have us view you guys as such.

Another thing Mouser you say men are in power. Tell me who is the majority leader of the Hose in the US Congress and what sex are they? And do you know any good size companies that have a female at the top? Because I know HP is one. The Food Network is another one. Yes there still needs to be progress made in the work place, but to say something that only men are in power is stupid to say nowadays.

[MVPlaya]

While I commend your extensive and logical explanation of gender roles in relation to appearance, I think the problem is more to do with behavior and personality.

I attribute the gender role confusion to the early nineties nonsense about how every woman wants a sensitive man. That resulted in a legion of guys believing that being manly was a negative thing causing them to be overly emotional and effeminate.

Women wanting sensitive men is not new to the nineties. You think that propaganda is new to post-feminist societies? That shit was all men were fed through the 1800's and 1900's via popular culture, novels, and social expectations. Court women, sexuality is disgraceful, casual sex is amoral, dress conservatively, be a gentlemen (open doors, etc). Men had huge pressure on them to love women, compliment them, etc. What you're seeing in the 90's isn't new, thats why I bring up looks to you. What you're discussing is how it looks effeminate to you, but men falling in love easily and not knowing how to manage their emotions is not a societal shift. This kind of "AFC" behavior has existed for centuries, and Panic at the Disco didn't invent it.

"That resulted in a legion of guys believing that being manly was a negative thing causing them to be overly emotional and effeminate"

This sentence makes a lot of assumptions which I don't think are warranted:

1) Men used to be manly
2) Men no longer think being manly is good
3) There is a definition for being manly
4) There is a correct amount of emotions for men to feel
5) There is something known as effeminate which is contrary to manliness
6) Effeminacy is on the rise

I think almost all of these are questionable and off-target. Insecure men, emotional men, and clueless men have existed for thousands of years. There have always been social clues fed into them expecting them to love women certain ways and treat them certain ways, and usually these social rules represent idealized versions of Romance (Hollywood's 'magic moments') that leave men with a lot of ****ed up bullshit in their heads that never pans out for them.

Thats not new. You're not seeing anything new. It might be a different group of people doing it, the outward appearance of the new generation of misguided males might look different / more common, but its not on the rise and its not a massive societal shift. You're just seeing more of it thanks to changes in their appearance (emo examples earlier in thread).