Before sending in my absentee ballot

[Mish]

If that's the case I don't think there is such a thing as a true Christian. A true Christian would never own a car. His home would be a shack at best. A true Christian would spend only so much money as was needed to sustain himself. The rest would be given to the poor. Stick your head in a Christian church, though, and what do you see? Gold tabernacles, stained glass, mahogany wood, and even the poorest congregations dressed luxuriantly. There aren't many Mother Teresa's left, methinks.

But there are true Christians out there. You won't find them in luxurious churches driving in luxurious cars and wearing luxurious clothing. They are not hypocrites. There are lots of those Christians who haven't twisted and deformed the teachings of their Religion. You will find them at the soup kitchens, doing volunteer work, helping the poor any way they can, you will find them at Salvation army that does projects for the poor, you will find them at St Vinnies, yeh you will even find them lobbying in favor of "redistribution of wealth" which places a tax on people earning 250K + who are considered if not rich then at least well off and who can afford it. You will find many false Christians as well, but then their actions which go against their own holy book speaks for itself and casts them in real light.

You know what I don't get about Christianity? How is it that the New Testament completely overwrites the Old? Is that what Jesus intended? Or do people just disregard the Old Testament because it isn't as pleasant? And if you disregard better than half your religious text, can you really be considered a member of that particular religion?

I can't answer that question because I'm not an authority on that subject. I don't consider myself to be a true Christian because I know of the expectations Christianity places on true believers, though I still try to live up to some of them. There are certain aspects of Christianity that I disagree with as well.

[IndiReloaded]

Meh. In the end, its just another label. I would have what most would call 'Christian values' but I reject the label 'Christian' b/c I think its unnecessary. Gribble's sig quote sums it about just about right for me as far as root causes for ethics goes & it isn't b/c I'm God-fearing

Explain to me rationally, however, why something makes sense & I'm inclined to listen. DM, too, I think that's all I was saying. The religious part isn't in it, anymore than what colour underwear we are wearing today.

[vashti]

Honestly, I think those bible verses are offensive. I know a lot of affluent people, and they do a LOT for charitable causes and they have a very positive influence on the lives of a lot of poor people. If they give everything away, they wouldn't be in a position to help the poor anymore.

Gribble - I don't know why people consider the Hebrew bible to be "less pleasant" than the Christian writings. After all, the God of the Hebrew bible - although certainly a punishing sort of figure - is ultimately forgiving. The God of the Christian bible is compassionate until you die, at which time if you haven't accepted him, he throws you in the fiery pits of Hell for eternity. No ultimate forgiveness.

[boobaa]

What in the world isn't offencive?

But the First Testament was actually violent, like Koran. Second Testament is less, but religious fundamentalist and fat American home moms who blindly follow it speak for itself. Yes that was an offence from me to whoever those who feel like offended from my post...

[Lessia]

The unfortunate thing is that too many Americans are simply afraid of the word Democrat. McCain says he's going to change washington... yet his party, the Republicans, are already IN office..
McCain's gonna croak before the end of of his term and Palin's just gonna f*ck sh*t up. I mean, McCain is defff regretting bringing her on bc he didnt know she was so Hockey mom anti-commi, anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-anything not white collar american. Poor McCain, thinking he was getting all of Hillary's vote on the Repub. side by bringing in an Alaskan Hockey Mom.... or is that soon to be, Grandma?

[DoesntMatter]

I'm mainly defending my parents against all you dumb****s wanting to tear down Christianity. All you people want to do is tear it down and shit on it because it's the best thing there is to hate. It's kind of sad how I have to defend smart people like my parents from people as stupid as you

[Gribble]

Mish, are those people really doing enough by the New Testament's standards? At the end of the day they go home to an apartment with plumbing and electricity. They sit down to a nice meal. They slip into a comfortable bed. In the morning they take a hot shower, then hop into their vehicles and drive back to the soup kitchen. I would consider what they do extremely good. However, I'm not sure that it is enough. Isn't the whole point of the New Testament to show us how to live our lives? Aren't we supposed to be modeling our lives after Jesus? In the Western world the poorest is filthy stinking rich, whether they are aware of it or not. I'd hardly compare a volunteer to someone such as Mother Teresa who, supposedly, devoted herself wholly to helping the poor.

Vash, there are so many stories in the Old Testament that end in bloodshed. I mean, we have people killed in the thousands for mispronouncing names, we have children mauled for laughing at a bald guy, we have one of God's favored men offering his two virgin daughters up to a mob to be raped.

I don't believe the New Testament is really all that much better for the reason you pointed out. Amid all his compassion Jesus firmly presents himself as a "cosmic despot" by reinforcing the idea that we must believe or die. It's just... there's less stuff to ignore in the New Testament than in the Old, y'know? There are maybe two passages in which Jesus tells us he'll "allow" countless, countless human beings to suffer eternal and unimaginable agony. The Old Testament is filled with violent stories from beginning to end.

How do you justify all the violence and cruelty in the Bible? I can't believe those stories are somehow all allegorical. And if the excuse is that it was written in another age, why then drag that particular god into this age? Why not write a new text with an enlightened deity that preaches moral and ethical standards that are valid in the modern world?

[DoesntMatter]

Gribble I'm going to have to take the opportunity to tell you that you are in fact stupid. Please, please take some math classes and learn what your brain is for. You probably won't get very far but at least you may come to understand that you are not actually smart. Considering how much you like discussing things so purely theoretical you should be good at math, right?

[boobaa]

Funny how DM tries to defend everything with math or chemistry, because thats the only thing he is good at. Now what has math to do with God? Religion is all about theoretical, actually not even that because theory needs some kind of support and is actually proven, like with math. Its purely hypothetical, to put it gently.

[DoesntMatter]

Math and chemistry are all I'm good at? I'm probably better than you at most everything boobaa so shut the fucck up

What we were trying to talk about was the application of Christianity, but all these discussions ever boil down to are people bashing it whenever convenient

[Gribble]

Gribble I'm going to have to take the opportunity to tell you that you are in fact stupid. Please, please take some math classes and learn what your brain is for. You probably won't get very far but at least you may come to understand that you are not actually smart. Considering how much you like discussing things so purely theoretical you should be good at math, right?

Actually, DM, I was talking to folks who have real opinions and thoughts in their heads. Until you can express an opinion or handle a discussion without falling back on your little math nonsense you can safely assume I'm not speaking to you. Feel free to continue with your childish "I know math, you don't" bullshit if it makes you feel good, though.

[DoesntMatter]

You and many other people on this site are bigotted and hateful of Christianity. All I propose is that the template laid down for Christians to follow by Jesus is a great template to live by, and looking obectively at it I think almost anyone would agree. Whenever on this site Christians are mentioned it is always in a way scorning them because of their ignorance, hate, racism, intolerance, scientific ineptness, or hypocrisy. The rest of the time it is because they are silly Jesus freaks with messages of love and goodwill. It really doesn't matter

I don't like the hate towards Christians on this site. It's not something I have to put up with like I've been all my life at school and elsewhere, so I'm not going to listen to it anymore here

[Mish]

Mish, are those people really doing enough by the New Testament's standards? At the end of the day they go home to an apartment with plumbing and electricity. They sit down to a nice meal. They slip into a comfortable bed. In the morning they take a hot shower, then hop into their vehicles and drive back to the soup kitchen. I would consider what they do extremely good. However, I'm not sure that it is enough. Isn't the whole point of the New Testament to show us how to live our lives? Aren't we supposed to be modeling our lives after Jesus? In the Western world the poorest is filthy stinking rich, whether they are aware of it or not. I'd hardly compare a volunteer to someone such as Mother Teresa who, supposedly, devoted herself wholly to helping the poor.

And there are those who do enough according to the New Testament as well. They are just less seen because they are not a good media material. I've personally met Christians who live modest to poor life style and yet still volunteer to help the poor. Though, I don't consider people you mentioned to do anything wrong as well. If a person who lives a moderate middle class or a well off life style and does what he/she can to sync it with their Religion I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's very hypocrtical of Rich Christians (and I would consider people earning 250K+ a year to be rich or at least almost rich) who call themselves Christians and yet openly speak out against the poor, how poor people are all dumb and should just go get a job and stop "stealing" their money. That irony is very sad and it's strange that so many people don't realize it.

[Gribble]

It is amazing how sensitive people get over this subject. Anything else you'd gladly debate. But not your religion. Something is very, very wrong with that. If I offended you, well, I'm not sorry in the least bit. Someone's got to be critical of religion.

Besides, I wasn't mocking Christianity. I was trying to comprehend it. This is my point as succinctly as I can write it: what's up with all that other stuff outside the Christian template for good living, how do you justify it, and if you ignore it are you really a Christian?

[Mish]

You and many other people on this site are bigotted and hateful of Christianity. All I propose is that the template laid down for Christians to follow by Jesus is a great template to live by, and looking obectively at it I think almost anyone would agree. Whenever on this site Christians are mentioned it is always in a way scorning them because of their ignorance, hate, racism, intolerance, scientific ineptness, or hypocrisy. The rest of the time it is because they are silly Jesus freaks with messages of love and goodwill. It really doesn't matter

I don't like the hate towards Christians on this site. It's not something I have to put up with like I've been all my life at school and elsewhere, so I'm not going to listen to it anymore here

I agree with DM on this. Even though Christianity does come with many contradictions, at it's core it has a very decent model for people to follow. If you consider Christian attitudes to the golden rule and seven virtues and seven sins for example they lay out a good path. Modesty, charity, humility, moderation, kindness, patience, abstinance... they are all good standards. And one can say that people should be able to follow these regardless of Religion, which is true. But Religion provides a great cultural, historic and moral motivating incentive for people to do it, which is a benefit. It's not as easy to follow these standards without a great purpose.