State of Arizona Passes Law to Check Immigration Status

[SirWagginston]

I agree that our education needs to give more attention to critical thought. I'm a big fan of Montessori-style and individualized education. I think the system in place (both in the US and Canada) is designed to cater to the majority, and innovative types are left on the wayside. But that really has nothing to do with immigration; it just means education everyone can and should be better.

I'm a little surprised that you don't notice the historical parallels in this discussion of menial labor, though. So many people here seem to think, "A robot could never do jobs humans are doing." That sounds a lot like what people said during the industrial revolution--"A machine laying railroad tracks for us? That's just silly."

Sure, we haven't completely automated brick laying or sidewalk building yet, but it's going to happen. No program can beat a human pilot or surgeon now, but that's not going to last. I can see automated pilots, in particular, happening in my lifetime. Once the AI is trained to think properly, its lightning-speed reaction time and impeccable coordination will make it superior, and real pilots will be phased out. It didn't stop at the steam engine, it didn't stop at the automated assembly line, and technology isn't going to stop now, either.

And so my point was this. The primary argument for deporting all illegals is that they take our menial jobs. But deporting them for that reason is just delaying the inevitable. When factories went high-tech, workers were laid off and had to find new jobs, and the same thing is going to happen as automation technology continues to advance. People said, "Well, human factory workers can still do the job faster and with better quality." Not anymore. And in the same way, it seems obvious to me that human brick layers, roof shinglers and sidewalk-builders will be obsoleted, too. Blue collar workers fought it in the past, and will continue to fight it, but it's the mark of progress. There will come a time when people will think, "Ew, I don't want the human surgeon. What if his hand is shaky?"

[SirWagginston]

You first need to concede that all of my statements regarding immigration before you blew my mind with your ignorance, are indeed correct.

Secondly, I have never talked to anyone that has anything against immigrants. My father was an immigrant, these people are trespassers.

Thirdly, you act like because you're "highly educated" that you're actually smarter than us "wasted potential".

As far as I can tell, your parents, your school fed you the bullshit that college is good for everyone, and you gobbled it right up. Now you have your head so far up your ass you can't even recognize how utterly flawed and disgusting your logic is.

It doesn't sound like they taught you common sense in school.

My head is up MY ass? You're the arrogant one. You're swearing at me and refusing to engage in real dialogue because you assume right off the bat that I cannot be correct. Instead of actually reading and rebutting any points I make, you are instead choosing to assail my personal character. If I was as immature as you, I would have reduced myself to petty name-calling before this point.

[Junket]

My head is up MY ass? You're the arrogant one. You're swearing at me and refusing to engage in real dialogue because you assume right off the bat that I cannot be correct. Instead of actually reading and rebutting any points I make, you are instead choosing to assail my personal character. If I was as immature as you, I would have reduced myself to petty name-calling before this point.

After coming home after an honest 8, the last thing I'm interested in reading is someone's attempt to belittle or discredit what I enjoy as my profession.

In any case, regardless as to whether you use curse words or names, I can recognize an insult.

Also, you replied after I edited my post.

[SirWagginston]

After coming home after an honest 8, the last thing I'm interested in reading is someone's attempt to belittle or discredit what I enjoy as my profession.

In any case, regardless as to whether you use curse words or names, I can recognize an insult.

Also, you replied after I edited my post.

So what you're saying is, because of the position I took, you jumped to the conclusion that I'm retarded without bothering to really read what I'm saying. Meaning, even if I am making good points right now, you won't know it, and will continue to sit on your moral high ground. Ergo, in attempting to speak to you reasonably, I'm being unfair to myself, because you're not extending the same courtesy to me. Worse, still, your unwillingness to consider the opinions of others means that the entire conversation is unproductive. I have common sense enough to understand that.

I'm having fun talking to IndiReloaded, but until you learn to talk about serious issues without getting your panties in a knot, I'm going to ignore your posts in such threads for fear of wasting my time. I'm not childish enough to leave a little PS or FYI of my thoughts on your last post.

[Junket]

And so my point was this. The primary argument for deporting all illegals is that they take our menial jobs. But deporting them for that reason is just delaying the inevitable. When factories went high-tech, workers were laid off and had to find new jobs, and the same thing is going to happen as automation technology continues to advance. People said, "Well, human factory workers can still do the job faster and with better quality." Not anymore. And in the same way, it seems obvious to me that human brick layers, roof shinglers and sidewalk-builders will be obsoleted, too. Blue collar workers fought it in the past, and will continue to fight it, but it's the mark of progress. There will come a time when people will think, "Ew, I don't want the human surgeon. What if his hand is shaky?"

It sounds to me, more than anything that you've never built anything.

Also, the people that create these robots or machines you talk of, won't be people like you.

Sorry, but it's the truth, you don't understand the complexities that goes into construction. A person that has worked in, has experience doing, that kind of work, may produce these things.

I wish you could see the shit these architects and engineers come up with. They do everything by the book, and ensure everything is up to code, but too many of them don't use COMMON SENSE. A construction firm will always pick an electrical engineer with 15 years experience in the field, and 5 years in school compared to a honors student with 10 years in school.

I've seen, worked with the plans these "smart" people come up with, and they're awfully flawed. Humans design all of these things, therefore they will always be flawed, robots cannot overcome these flaws on their own. That's the problem, that will always be the problem.

Your predictions of the future are incredibly disturbing, there's enough of what's present in our reality that is already disturbing, (ipod generation). You seem hell bent on creating a world where we've effectively removed what has made humans human. There will be no need to work by the time your robots have reached fruition, and out will go any kind of "freedom" that you envision.

[Junket]

So what you're saying is, because of the position I took, you jumped to the conclusion that I'm retarded without bothering to really read what I'm saying. Meaning, even if I am making good points right now, you won't know it, and will continue to sit on your moral high ground. Ergo, in attempting to speak to you reasonably, I'm being unfair to myself, because you're not extending the same courtesy to me. Worse, still, your unwillingness to consider the opinions of others means that the entire conversation is unproductive. I have common sense enough to understand that.

I'm having fun talking to IndiReloaded, but until you learn to talk about serious issues without getting your panties in a knot, I'm going to ignore your posts in such threads for fear of wasting my time. I'm not childish enough to leave a little PS or FYI of my thoughts on your last post.

I've read everything you've said and I have yet to see anything that I find makes any reasonable sense.

So far you've said people that perform any kind of labor are wasted potential a hindrance to progress.

Illegal immigrants are good because we can exploit them to raise our standard of living.

One day everyone will be out of work because robots will do everything which will leave the majority of the population with little to do beyond entertain themselves.

[SirWagginston]

There's reading, and there's reading and actually thinking about what you're reading. People who think about what another is saying in debate have more to reply with than, "You're a ****ing idiot." But I suppose believing in the art of debate makes me just another pussy liberal, eh?

[Junket]

There's reading, and there's reading and actually thinking about what you're reading. People who think about what another is saying in debate have more to reply with than, "You're a ****ing idiot." But I suppose believing in the art of debate makes me just another pussy liberal, eh?

Well if I told you that "black people aren't human and therefore cannot actually go to the fictional heaven they aspire to." I'm sure you would be just as dumbfounded.

Add that to my g/f telling me she's ready to go grab dinner, you would be hard pressed to debate anything.

[SirWagginston]

Would I be dumbfounded? Yes. Would I lose my temper and make it personal? Maybe, if I was still 14. I wouldn't consider myself a full-fledged adult, yet, but I'm mature enough to realize that if I can be dumbfounded by what he's saying, and so sure of my correctness that he's worth nothing but ridicule, that he can be the same way. Just as you were dumbfounded by what I said, another person taking my position would be dumbfounded by what you're saying. Then we have two parties, both of whom assume the stupidity of the other, and neither of whom are willing to actually give them the benefit of the doubt, which leads to partisanship and pointless bickering. I give the benefit of the doubt to everyone and everything, and I think that's the most reasonable way to behave, because otherwise, I might write off arguments I could learn something from. If I don't have time to give the benefit of the doubt to someone--say, because my girlfriend wants to grab lunch--I choose to remain silent. I think that's more than polite, but wise.

[Junket]

I can tell you're white collar since you're trying to mind f*ck me with that shit they taught you in school.

Look dude, those skills are invaluable where you are, and they're even valuable where I am too.

A well rounded worker knows how to clean themselves up and communicate with finesse. They have to because we deal with office types frequently enough.

However, on the job site, we also deal with some rough personalities, and when people are put under pressure they can say some nasty things.

I don't converse much on the job site because it's a waste of time and effort, they haven't keep me because I'm fun to talk to, they've kept me because I show up on time, work efficiently, and adapt quickly.

There's no time to be politically correct, if you're doing something wrong, someone will call you out on it. If they're nice they'll leave it at that, if they're not, they'll throw in an insult or two.

This is just a matter of preference, but I would prefer to be cock slapped than gently ass f*cked.

I've begun expanding on my thoughts and have contributed plenty but still it seems you're stuck on me calling you an idiot rather than providing any kind of worthwhile rebuttal.

Now, are you ready to move on?

[SirWagginston]

Sorry, man, I'm not trying to mind **** you. I wasn't taught these things in school; they are just my opinions. To be frank, I hated school, skipped all the time, and got in trouble frequently. I didn't start to take my education seriously until I got into college based on AP/SAT scores. It must sound hard to believe, given the way I'm communicating, but I ran with a pretty bad crowd, and I have scars to prove it... I'm pretty tempted to start a blog.

It's not that I think people that are wrong should not be called out; it's that I think they should have it explained to them why you think they are wrong. Maybe that's just how I was raised. I can only remember one time in my life when my father shouted at me. He taught me to ask questions, and if I was doing something wrong, we talked about it and he told me why it was wrong. Then I believed that it was wrong, and I didn't do it again. If someone chooses instead to just shout, "You're wrong! Don't do that," I will naturally assume that I'm actually correct, or else he or she would not be forced to rely on fear tactics to alter my behavior. You would probably hate me as a son. Actually, I would have looted your house of as many valuables as possible and ran away from home, Tenacious D style. Or accused you of child molestation like in South Park.

[IndiReloaded]

I agree that our education needs to give more attention to critical thought. I'm a big fan of Montessori-style and individualized education. I think the system in place (both in the US and Canada) is designed to cater to the majority, and innovative types are left on the wayside. But that really has nothing to do with immigration; it just means education everyone can and should be better.

Its a digression from the immigration topic, but a far more important one, IMO.

I'm a little surprised that you don't notice the historical parallels in this discussion of menial labor, though. So many people here seem to think, "A robot could never do jobs humans are doing." That sounds a lot like what people said during the industrial revolution--"A machine laying railroad tracks for us? That's just silly."

Sure, we haven't completely automated brick laying or sidewalk building yet, but it's going to happen. No program can beat a human pilot or surgeon now, but that's not going to last. I can see automated pilots, in particular, happening in my lifetime. Once the AI is trained to think properly, its lightning-speed reaction time and impeccable coordination will make it superior, and real pilots will be phased out. It didn't stop at the steam engine, it didn't stop at the automated assembly line, and technology isn't going to stop now, either.

So what? Remind me again why this is a good thing, when most ppl already don't understand how a toaster works?

And so my point was this. The primary argument for deporting all illegals is that they take our menial jobs. But deporting them for that reason is just delaying the inevitable. When factories went high-tech, workers were laid off and had to find new jobs, and the same thing is going to happen as automation technology continues to advance. People said, "Well, human factory workers can still do the job faster and with better quality." Not anymore. And in the same way, it seems obvious to me that human brick layers, roof shinglers and sidewalk-builders will be obsoleted, too. Blue collar workers fought it in the past, and will continue to fight it, but it's the mark of progress. There will come a time when people will think, "Ew, I don't want the human surgeon. What if his hand is shaky?"

And MY point is, its only a mark of progress if education permits this new-found freedom to be put to use, to drive new innovation. Not to make people obsolete. That requires creative thinkers, something a robot absolutely does not do. Your robots should be taken to primary schools and the children encouraged to learn how these things work from first principles. Or a lego nxt kit. Imagine how YOU might have responded to that in your early school years.

As for the surgeon, I think you overestimate how much trust ppl will put in technology. Personally, I would still want the human doc. Sure, he can have a mechanical glove that damps any twitches, but I want his human judgement there to control the device. To be able to flick that OFF switch if he decides its not working right or its getting in his way. Technology is a tool, but it shouldn't blindly replace a human mind. The robot won't give a rats ass if it screws up my brain surgery.

[IndiReloaded]

EDIT: In a feeble attempt to try to make a positive difference you might want to look up "Shop Class As Soulcraft: An inquiry into the value of work" by Matthew B Crawford.

I don't agree with everything he said, but it might kick you in the balls with a different perspective than what you're clinging to now.

Here's a review: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/books/review/Fukuyama-t.html[/url]

Fras, what a great link thanks for that. I am ordering this book, it sounds very much like a read we would enjoy. Bump for CAM also, assuming he hasn't read it already.

[SirWagginston]

I've already stated that I don't disagree with you about the need for innovation and understanding. I was in a Montessori school, myself, until grade 3, and I thought it was really good for me. We did hands on activities of all kinds, my favorite being building with blocks, Lincoln Logs, etc. My vision is a little different than you think, though.

It's a good thing that more human tasks are becoming automated because that frees up our time to do other things, and makes society more productive. On the whole, that allows the average person more and better food, supplies, tools and luxuries, as general wealth increases. That's how standards of living will continue to increase as they have historically. Even if many people continue to know nothing about the technology making it possible (as is the case now), our lives would be much improved.

I'm unsure how you would have inferred this, given that I neither stated nor implied it, but I do not advocate a society in which everybody sits back, not doing or understanding anything, as robots do all the work in a stagnant society. I said menial labor would go away, not labor in general. The work force would continue its upward expansion into the service sector. Construction workers are replaced by construction overseers; garbage disposal workers replaced by garbage disposal machine operators. Human creativity would become the only thing of value we have left, and most jobs would have to revolve around the production of new techniques, methods and ideas. The management and software industries would explode, as well.

However, I disagree that an artificial intelligence is inherently incapable of creativity. That field of computer science is booming. Someone has already created an AI that can compose music, and ones that can paint and compose stories are well underway, at a pace that would put them in operation within both of our lifetimes. They are even working on programs that can imitate human dialogue, and it looks like the Turing test is going to be passed within the century. The latter fascinates me the most. In one of my Honors courses we talked about whether machines can be conscious or have feelings, and I was one of the minority who argued that it's possible. I'll blabber on about the arguments I used, if you want, but what I really took away from that experience is an intense desire to prove those people wrong, and code a program that they would mistake for a thinking, feeling being.

[SirWagginston]

Fras, what a great link thanks for that. I am ordering this book, it sounds very much like a read we would enjoy. Bump for CAM also, assuming he hasn't read it already.

I also want to say that I do think there is value in human craftsmanship. I like to build things, and sometimes do it for fun. When I go to my family's vacation island up in Ontario, we build everything ourselves. We built the sidewalks, the docks, even the cabins. We do it because it's fun, like a hobby. We live up there without electricity, even though it's an option to have it there, now, because we think that experience is valuable.

But I would never do those things for a living.