Things finally came to a head, I think

[Incognito]

Hm well was Saturday supposed to be a date? Well, if yes then I can definitely see how she is mad. "lesser of two evils..." you should WANT to go out with her (if you love her that is) no matter where the date is

The cliche two things women wanted to know are:
1. They are always right
2. They are adored

The latter was clearly rejected, esp when you ignored her.

And no she did not want you to be honest, but then its her own fault for asking :p

Anyway it seems pretty obvious that the issues run deeper than just an outing not going through. I don't think this should necessarily be just two options-stay or go. If you stay it seems something has to change. Have you tried marriage counseling?

I guess you can say that to be funny, but no woman (or anyone for that matter) is always right. That being said I will never humor anyone to the point of letting them believe that they are always right. There was a lot going on on both of our ends, and the pressure had been building for some time. At that point in time I absolutely did not adore her.

Wow. I can see why your wife doesn't have sex with you. You pick stupid fights, act like a child, and blame it on her.

I hope you will both find someone more suitable after the divorce you provoked.

Actually I didn't pick a fight. I simply realized that I didn't come up with any suitable alternatives, and that it would be fair to do one of the things she suggested because of that. As far as acting like a child goes... I suppose that my actions can be interpreted differently by different people. I asked if she wanted to go to one of the places SHE suggested, she said "no", I asked why not, she got an attitude, I decided to get on with the day and asked if she wanted to come, she said "no" and I left. Obviously I was angry at that point too, which is why I stayed out. I think we were both angry.

I think this relationship was over a long time ago, it's just taken the two of you some time to realize it. The main problem I think is that the two of you are just not very compatible to each other.

As wrong as we may be for each other there are few alternatives considering our religious backgrounds. Hence us still being together.

Didn't this woman say that if he tries to divorce her, she will milk him for all he's worth and make his life miserable? I would be testy with her 24/7 under those conditions.

Actually I have no idea where this came from. She's never said that and I highly doubt that she'd take me to court for everything I'm worth.

Lying might be a strong word, but he's definitely not being objective when he posts. It's been said many times before, but I would sure like to see what his wife has to say about his role in these relationship problems.

I'm actually a bit bothered/hurt by this coming from you. I try to be objective when posting, otherwise there is no point in posting. Anyone can post and make themselves look like the good guy, but then nothing gets solved. If I wanted to tell a one sided story and have someone tell me how right I am I'd simply call my best friend, not post here.

You clearly can't communicate and acted like a prima donna in your first post. In this particular instance, you are the one at fault. She made an effort, you dissed her, gave no viable alternative and then expected her to drop everything because you suddenly decide to grace everyone with your presence on the outing?

I can't speak to her. Tho, as these things rarely happen in a vacuum I'm sure she has her issues also.

But if this is how you have decided to behave, I too agree a divorce may be best. Good luck to you both.

Ok, so where did I not communicate clearly? As far as "expecting her to drop everything because you suddenly decide to grace everyone with your presence on the outing" reread my post, and then read my post to Vashti above.

Well, obviously he has given up. All his efforts toward restarting their sex life failed.

At that point I had thoroughly given up, was apathetic, and not looking at the larger picture.

[Incognito]

I remember talking to my friend last week and we both agreed that I was f*cked either way. He remarked that if we stayed together that I'd better be the best man that I can be from here on. Its funny how some of the most insightful things can come from the most unexpected places at the most unexpected times. He said that if he were me he'd probably just op for singleness whether it was a divorce or just separation. I am absolutely NOT a people person, but I couldn't see myself living alone. Again, because of my religious background, I couldn't actually divorce unless she cheated. If we separated I still would have zero sex. After my wife and I talked and put everything on the table. I told her that I rarely care anymore because she doesn't want me and we never have sex. She said we never have sex because she feels that I don't care and there is no intimacy. Funny isn't it? Cause and effect on both sides. Its like a yin and yang relationship disaster. Anyway after two days of open discussion (including separation, which she didn't want to talk about as openly as I did) we concluded that we both need to do many things differently, and that we need to try harder. I need to try doubly hard. It has been calm since then and we haven't been in any more fights/arguments, and have been doing more things together.

[IndiReloaded]

Ok, so where did I not communicate clearly? As far as "expecting her to drop everything because you suddenly decide to grace everyone with your presence on the outing" reread my post, and then read my post to Vashti above.

Its was this where you gave a mixed message:

She suggests the Inner Harbor or an art museum. I personally didn't want to go to either place and told her such. Saturday morning I get up and say to myself "well I couldn't come up with a place to go, so I'll go with the lesser of the two evils and go to the Harbor". I get dressed and go out into the living room and ask when she is getting dressed because we'll go ahead and go to the Inner Harbor.

Vashti agreed with my post, read again. Your last communication with her was that you didn't want to go. Stated clearly and perfectly reasonable as you posted. But then you had a nice conversation with yourself and changed your mind but didn't communicate this to anyone else. You simply expected that she was still going, incorrectly, as happened.

What you should have done was *asked* her if she was still going. If she said yes, then you should have *asked* if it was okay to come along b/c you changed your mind.

I get the impression you aren't very good at asking for what you want. I suspect you assume and inform or demand but you rarely ask. I also suspect your wife probably anticipates a lot of things about you instead of letting you take responsibility for actually asking. Politely.

If I could counsel your wife, I would tell her to use the phrase "so, what is it you are asking me?'" more often. You'll find it very frustrating, but it would be good for your relationship I think.

[Incognito]

'I also suspect your wife probably anticipates a lot of things

Sorry, you're wrong there. I typically ask her opinion about everything that will affect her. That is how she ended up suggesting two places. I simply didn't like either one of the places she picked.

'What you should have done was *asked* her if she was still going. If she said yes, then you should have *asked* if it was okay to come along b/c you changed your mind.

^^^This I agree with. However in this case even if I had asked if she was still going and she said "no" the rest would have played out as it did anyway.

[IndiReloaded]

Sorry, you're wrong there. I typically ask her opinion about everything that will affect her. That is how she ended up suggesting two places. I simply didn't like either one of the places she picked.

Okay. Shrug.

^^^This I agree with. However in this case even if I had asked if she was still going and she said "no" the rest would have played out as it did anyway.

But in that case the responsibility for the decision sits squarely with her. You made the communication murky with your tentative approach on the subject. There is nothing wrong with "I didn't want to go yesterday but now I've changed my mind. Are you still going? If so, I'd like to join you.". I could be wrong, it may be that you are the one being too tentative with your communication attempts. Let her take responsibility for her decisions.

[Incognito]

Is there a reason that you cannot receive PMs right now IndiReloaded?

[Gigabitch]

You rejected the idea of counseling before because you said it was too expensive. It's cheaper than getting a divorce. Go get marriage counseling. Now.

[Incognito]

Damn. I still struggle with giving someone $120.00+ per hour just for their opinion. Anyone can sit in an office and give an objective opinion on a situation and charge for it. That doesn't make their opinion any more valid or useful than anyone else's. It just means that after an hour I'll have less money and they will have more.

[Gigabitch]

You both need to learn how to communicate effectively. Counselors are there to help you learn how to do that. It's not a waste.

[IndiReloaded]

Damn. I still struggle with giving someone $120.00+ per hour just for their opinion. Anyone can sit in an office and give an objective opinion on a situation and charge for it. That doesn't make their opinion any more valid or useful than anyone else's. It just means that after an hour I'll have less money and they will have more.

Its not a waste if you can find the right counsellor. Ask your doc for recommendations, or friends whose opinion you trust if they have been this route.

[Charisma]

I'm sorry if this is harsh. Actually I'm not. It will be my honest opinion. In my opinion. Based on what I've read.

You don't seem to take advice/criticism/the opinions and observations of other people very well. Through this thread you've disagreed and debated what other people have said about you and your marriage. That might seem ok, since some things could be wrongly assumed.

But you're outright dismissing marriage counselling. It's not about their opinions, or the money. It's about the tools they will have to help you both approach the marriage in a different way, and to help communicate better. And how to HAVE SEX AGAIN. Obviously, what you've been doing has been FAILING. So you have to seek other options if you're gonna make this work. You know, work doubly hard?

It would be tough. And expensive. But there might be other options to look at. Just, don't dismiss that one completely. It might end up being the only one that really sticks.

[Incognito]

Well Charisma the thing about me is that I typically don't change my opinion based on how many people tell me otherwise, rather I only change my opinion when I am given reasonable and factual information to the contrary. So far I don't know anyone who has been through marriage counseling in real life. If I do, they didn't tell me. As far as here goes no one has proven to me that someone with the label 'Marriage Counselor' has any better an opinion than the person at the McDonald's drive up window. That's what I have an issue with. Doctors treat diseases. Certain diseases have certain preventative measures and treatments. It is not nearly as cut and dry when dealing with relationship/emotional issues. There is no surefire cure for any one problem, because the root causes differ between couples/individuals. There is too much there to interpret, and I frankly don't see how anyone's opinion (that's the key word here) is better than anyone else's just because they charge almost as much as I pay for a month's worth of car insurance for an hour of their time.

With all of that said I am not saying that I will NEVER go. I'm saying that I don't think I'll get what I'm paying for, so it will probably be the last thing I try. It can be likened to paying $50.00 for a fast food meal. You don't want to do it, but if its the last place in town that's open when you're starving you just suck it up and do it (only as a last resort of course).

I'm also not in a particularly good mood today, so to see your comment prefaced the way it is pissed me off a bit (despite the tidbits of truth that are there). I'll also add that before making a broad statement like "You don't seem to take the advice/criticism/the opinions and observations of other people very well" perhaps you should read other threads posted by the person and not formulate an opinion based on one topic.

[TheTooya]

Well, just offering my two cents. Marriage Counselors may not have some holy differences in opinion from you're typical McDonalds employee, but they do have the experience of understanding and working through people that are in shitty marriages.

I wouldn't discount what they say at all, if just for the fact they have helped MANY people with their marriages. Yes, its a shit ton of money, but... it seems like you are paying them on their experience.

--

That said, you are not happy with your relationship, so why bother staying in it? What it sounded like was that you were trying to break up, but couldn't follow through. If you THAT unhappy, follow through. Actually go out there and break things off, and yes, divorces are messy. If there is nothing to salvage in the relationship, then why stay in it? :/

Good luck.

[ftm]

Incognito,

As I am sure you are aware, I am extremely sympathetic to your situation. but I have some questions. I don't want you to think I'm trying to aggressively "call you out." I'm just looking for a few answers.

First of all, you have been adamant that you cannot divorce her (unless she is unfaithful or asks for divorce first) because of religious considerations. What religion are you? And, forgive me, but you don't SEEM to be terribly religious. From what I have read on this board, it doesn't seem like, at this point, for example, you'd have any problems having sex outside of wedlock so long as you weren't otherwise married. And you seem to regret your decision to not sleep with her until after you were married (and I don't blame you).

Why can''t you just leave your wife? Is it pressure froom your family? From your community? Do you honestly believe that leaving her would be wrong, or are you just unwilling to compromise the ideals of the faith you were raised with even if you don't believe them.

Can you see how miserable these ideals are making you, your wife, and (I am only assume) her daughter?

I really wish you the best. I'm glad that things seem to be coming to a head, but it sounds to me like you've given up on them getting any better. Right now it's just a game of chicken, and you are counting on her giving up first. This seems pretty stupid, and verging on self-destructive.

Why not just ask for a separation and be done with it?

[Incognito]

Wow. That's a bit of a doozy.
1. I'm Christian
2. I don't sleep with a bible under my pillow, but I don't disregard what is written in it to suit my wants. -let me reword that....I TRY not to-
3. I see your point about my not having a problem with having sex out of wedlock though claiming to be religious. This is something that I am having trouble trying to put into words mainly because it is multifaceted.
4. I regret not sleeping with her before getting married only because I see where I am now. Its more like bitching about it than actually wishing I had acted differently. Having sex back then wouldn't have shown me where I'd have ended up.
5. I suppose that I could simply get a separation, but that doesn't help my sex life at all. It leaves it right where it is (although it would solve the fighting problem). If we were separated I think I probably would cheat after a while, and I don't want to put myself in that position.
6. I haven't given up on things getting better, but I am not counting on them getting better. If it happens, great. If not, well I wasn't expecting it anyway. No expectations, no let down.