Things finally came to a head, I think

[Mish]

I told her that I rarely care anymore because she doesn't want me and we never have sex. She said we never have sex because she feels that I don't care and there is no intimacy.

Well, that sounds like a breakthrough to me. Before I thought that she just has a low sex drive, but if there are things that you can do to improve the sex life (like intimacy) then what are you waiting for? You should jump all over that bandwagon. If I were you I would abandon any infighting and go for romance to see if this is indeed as how she describes it.

[matty007]

I agree with indireloaded; communication surely seems to be one of the issues -take it from me, with my issues I can recognize that one a mile away but seriously, you leave and are gone for 12 hours and then come home and head straight for the shower? Say what?? Not to judge, but that�s so-o-o-o passive- aggressive....emotionally neglecting or abusing is never good. have you guys tried counseling?

[lahnnabell]

Dude, you seem to absolutely refuse to take the high road here. You want to play the victim and find justification for all of your shitty actions too. There is a greater good here, and that is your marriage. If you really want to take steps toward solving the problems you two have, you need to start by abandoning your childish notions that all of this is her fault, and none of it yours.

The more you fight about these issues, the more damage you are doing. Time to lay down your swords.

[IndiReloaded]

You need to learn how to date your wife again. Also, don't you have a kid? I'm amazed that didn't come up as one of your reasons for working things out.

[url=http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/167_dating_advice.html]Woo your wife - AskMen.com Canada[/url]

[Incognito]

Dude, you seem to absolutely refuse to take the high road here. You want to play the victim and find justification for all of your shitty actions too. There is a greater good here, and that is your marriage. If you really want to take steps toward solving the problems you two have, you need to start by abandoning your childish notions that all of this is her fault, and none of it yours.

The more you fight about these issues, the more damage you are doing. Time to lay down your swords.

Well Lahnnabel I usually agree with most of your posts because you seem to be a very strong and smart individual, but I found the first two sentences of this post to be misinformed and offensive. I'll recap a bit so that you understand why I'm saying that. I've bee married almost six years now. When we first got married I was a bright eyed, bushy tailed young man who wanted nothing more than to be the best husband I could be. Seriously. I even got mad at myself if I accidentally looked at another woman's breasts or butt. Anyway we both had our issues, but the ones that started fights usually came from her. The main one being that her deep seated resentment of her father led her to constantly fight, argue with and resist me. Her father left her and her sisters when she was 10 or 12. He actually left for the woman who he had been cheating with (one of them anyway). Anyway, if I had an opinion I was wrong. If I disagreed, I was an asshole. When I disagreed and provided logical, irrefutable evidence as to why I was correct, there was a fight. I told her for SOOOO long that we needed to talk things out, but her solution was to simply not talk about it and "let things get back to normal". You and I know that is not how things are solved. Anyway that bright eyed, bushy tailed man is dead after so many years of nonsense, verbal abuse, and emotional abuse/neglect. I told her many times that I refused to be her emotional whipping boy so that she'd feel better about whatever was bothering her. That only caused more fights. One day I had enough and set a three month timeframe for her to shape up. I didn't tell her of this time frame because that would defeat the whole purpose of it. I wanted her to change because it needed to be done, not because I would leave in a certain amount of time. She didn't change, and I left at 5am on 03/07/07.

Back then it was mostly her. I started being part of the problem when I started becoming frustrated with her inability to talk, solve situations rationally, and control her angry outbursts. There was a point when I started smoking because I thought it would help me calm down because she stressed me out so much. As of now it is probably 60/40 with the problems, with me being on the 60 side. However I stand now as someone who bears the scars of the past five years, and yes it does make me less sensitive (just as physical scar tissue makes the body less sensitive). So for anyone to say "be the bigger man and take the high road", or "do it for the greater good".... Chew on what I just gave you, and ask yourself if you'd not be my spitting image if you had been through that. (also note that I'm not including all the shit that has gone down since we got back together). Those two statements ( "be the bigger man and take the high road", or "do it for the greater good") evoke in me thoughts of being the only one trying to solve the situation, but staying the course despite the fact that you are not being met half way or are being resisted.

I feel that it is prudent to mention that we are attempting to work on things, but this doesn't change how I felt in the past and how it has affected the person I am now.

[Incognito]

You need to learn how to date your wife again. Also, don't you have a kid? I'm amazed that didn't come up as one of your reasons for working things out.

[url=http://ca.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/167_dating_advice.html]Woo your wife - AskMen.com Canada[/url]

I will be sure to read that, as I am totally unaware of how to do that (wooing) after not doing it for so long. As far as her daughter.... well I guess that says it all doesn't it? She's her daughter. I had a vasectomy before we got married.

[RdHrshyKss]

i'm not giving her an excuse to have taken out her anger and insecurities on you, but damn...you go out of your way to shove it right back in her face. leaving for 12 hours straight? then coming back and telling her you don't care about her or love her? now you are the abuser, how does that make you feel?

i'm glad you are working things out, but nothing is going to change if you continue to have this "she put me through hell so she deserves it" mentality. if you want things to change you need to move on. stop dwelling on the past and look towards the future...how you are going to change your behaviors for the good of the relationship. you know that the way you behave towards her makes things worse, so just stop it already. we get it, she put you through hell and you hate her for it, you resent that you were her whipping boy. there's no way either of you will be able to progress if you are going to keep going back to those old feelings. sounds like it has been an "i'm not going to change unless she changes" situation for forever. it's old, childish and has only made things more stressful for both of you. sit her down and discuss the things that you need to change in the relationship, what you need from her as your wife, and then give her a chance to do the same. talk about them, make them all clear and then work on your share. don't worry about her share, that is her responsibility. if you concentrate on what she is doing or not doing, then you are dooming yourself to end up right where you started...going 'round and 'round in circles of stubbornness, selfishness, arrogance and resentment.

[Mish]

I feel that it is prudent to mention that we are attempting to work on things, but this doesn't change how I felt in the past and how it has affected the person I am now.

So what does that mean in practical terms? That you are going to keep trying to work things out, but at the same time you are not going to do things which have a chance of resolving this problem? (Like being more intimate)

[ftm]

Wow. That's a bit of a doozy.
1. I'm Christian
2. I don't sleep with a bible under my pillow, but I don't disregard what is written in it to suit my wants. -let me reword that....I TRY not to-
3. I see your point about my not having a problem with having sex out of wedlock though claiming to be religious. This is something that I am having trouble trying to put into words mainly because it is multifaceted.

Thanks for your honest answers. I was raised extremely religiously. I have since strayed quite a bit from the path I was put on as a young man, but I still know how it feels to have to reconcile what you "feel" is right for you with what you "know" is right according to your beliefs/upbringing. I wihs you luck in finding your path and reconciling your feelings and needs with your own personal spiritual path.

4. I regret not sleeping with her before getting married only because I see where I am now. Its more like bitching about it than actually wishing I had acted differently. Having sex back then wouldn't have shown me where I'd have ended up.

Point taken.

5. I suppose that I could simply get a separation, but that doesn't help my sex life at all. It leaves it right where it is (although it would solve the fighting problem). If we were separated I think I probably would cheat after a while, and I don't want to put myself in that position.

I admire your perseverance, in a way. Most Christians give no credence to the Bible's strongly-worded condemnations of divorce. (I find that it condemns divorce more strongly than a great number of behaviors that the Christian community has joined hands in condemning and rejecting). But I would add that it seems that you have doubts about a number of things that you may have once believed, and I'd encourage you to allow some of those doubtful thoughts to dwelling the way you've been handling this. I'll say again that it just seems like you ware waiting for her to blink first. If you are going to try to work this out, that's one thing. but waiting for her to ask for a divorce first just because you don't want to on principal is pretty wrong any way you cut it.

6. I haven't given up on things getting better, but I am not counting on them getting better. If it happens, great. If not, well I wasn't expecting it anyway. No expectations, no let down.

I know you have said that you don't want to pay for counseling. If you really want to work on things with this woman, at this point I think counseling is your only option. A counselor is going to help the two of you find ways of talking about the things that you have no way of resolving. You'll have a chance to confront all of the issues that you've been having-- no just the lack of intimacy, but the emotional abuse as well, and you may find that it brings you more effective ways of dealing with things.

Consider it.

[Incognito]

i'm not giving her an excuse to have taken out her anger and insecurities on you, but damn...you go out of your way to shove it right back in her face. leaving for 12 hours straight? then coming back and telling her you don't care about her or love her? now you are the abuser, how does that make you feel?

Its funny how you can feel so "right" in the moment and realize later that you went about something totally wrong. I'm usually more methodical than that, but my pent up anger and frustration got to me.

i'm glad you are working things out, but nothing is going to change if you continue to have this "she put me through hell so she deserves it" mentality. if you want things to change you need to move on. stop dwelling on the past and look towards the future...how you are going to change your behaviors for the good of the relationship. you know that the way you behave towards her makes things worse, so just stop it already. we get it, she put you through hell and you hate her for it, you resent that you were her whipping boy. there's no way either of you will be able to progress if you are going to keep going back to those old feelings. sounds like it has been an "i'm not going to change unless she changes" situation for forever. it's old, childish and has only made things more stressful for both of you. sit her down and discuss the things that you need to change in the relationship, what you need from her as your wife, and then give her a chance to do the same. talk about them, make them all clear and then work on your share. don't worry about her share, that is her responsibility. if you concentrate on what she is doing or not doing, then you are dooming yourself to end up right where you started...going 'round and 'round in circles of stubbornness, selfishness, arrogance and resentment.

Bottom line is that I don't walk around with a chip on my shoulder about that, but it makes me less tolerant and less sensitive. Had there been no attitude from her there would have been no fight (that day anyway). As far as "that talk" and the details surrounding it (as stated by you above) we had it. I'll not get into all the details here unless I see a need to. Unfortunately this happened because I simply cannot stomach her bad attitude when something doesn't go her way. I usually see her attitude and get pissed at her having an attitude and add it to "the jar" (figurative, of course). Once I've dealt with enough attitude that "the jar" is full and I can't contain my disgust any longer things like this happen.

I didn't post about it, but something similar actually happened over the 4th of July weekend. We were out of town at her sister's house and Friday, Saturday, and most of Sunday were fine. Sunday evening she got pissy because she decided to cook something else and everyone went outside. If I remember correctly it wasn't necessary for her to cook anything else. She got snappy when I was in the kitchen with her (plink.... one in the jar) Then her daughter broke her cousin's brand new toy by throwing it down the steps (and I mean only out the package for an hour or so). Anyway she knows better and discipline was in order. She was to stand in the corner until we figured out something out. I thought that a pop on the buns was appropriate, but my wife didn't think so. I agreed and then proposed that she pay 1/2 of the toy's worth to her aunt. She didn't want that to go down either, but I told her that it was going to happen. Her daughter's money wasn't with her, so she had to get money from her purse to give to her aunt (to be replaced once we returned home). She got pissed then because she thought paying for the toy was stupid and she felt like I was rushing her to get the money. More attitude, more in the jar. THEN I told her daughter to come out of the corner and what was going to happen. Her uncle was very upset and punished his daughter (who was involved), while warning that nothing else was to happen that weekend. I told her (wife's daughter) to mind her speech and actions for the remainder of our visit or she might get popped. Not 10 minutes later we are sitting at the table and she (the daughter) starts saying some rather ill mannered things to her cousin. My exact words were "are you thinking about what you are saying?". My wife immediately chimes in "you need to stop being so hard on her", with attitude of course. Jar full. I looked at her and said "first off, I wasn't talking to you, second there was no need for you to say anything". I apparently had my finger raised (which I didn't remember doing, but she had no reason to lie about it when we fought about it later). Was what I said inappropriate and disrespectful? Yes, but there is a reason for it (as outlined). Yes I've heard the saying "you don't fight fire with fire", but I'm only human. Not to mention that I have little tolerance from years of the same shit. When not dealing with ignorance, arrogance, or attitude I can be one of the most laid back people you'll ever meet. The "jar" came about after years of dealing with her. I feel like I'm just rambling now, so I'll stop...

[Incognito]

So what does that mean in practical terms? That you are going to keep trying to work things out, but at the same time you are not going to do things which have a chance of resolving this problem? (Like being more intimate)

I suppose that I'll start with that article that IndiReloaded posted. I'll see how it goes from there.

[Incognito]

Thanks for your honest answers. I was raised extremely religiously. I have since strayed quite a bit from the path I was put on as a young man, but I still know how it feels to have to reconcile what you "feel" is right for you with what you "know" is right according to your beliefs/upbringing. I wihs you luck in finding your path and reconciling your feelings and needs with your own personal spiritual path

.
Well if there is one thing that I try to do if I possibly can, its be honest. Thanks for the well-wishing.

I admire your perseverance, in a way. Most Christians give no credence to the Bible's strongly-worded condemnations of divorce. (I find that it condemns divorce more strongly than a great number of behaviors that the Christian community has joined hands in condemning and rejecting). But I would add that it seems that you have doubts about a number of things that you may have once believed, and I'd encourage you to allow some of those doubtful thoughts to dwelling the way you've been handling this. I'll say again that it just seems like you ware waiting for her to blink first. If you are going to try to work this out, that's one thing. but waiting for her to ask for a divorce first just because you don't want to on principal is pretty wrong any way you cut it

Yes I realize that too, and I try not to simply be like everyone else just because its easier. "Try" being the functional word as always concerning matters of this nature. Being honest again, yes, I would have loved for her to have cheated so that I could rightfully divorce. That is practically an impossibility though, and I cannot say that I totally feel that way right now. I suppose that is wrong, but I don't claim to be a saint. I'm just a man who does a great many things based on principle.

I know you have said that you don't want to pay for counseling. If you really want to work on things with this woman, at this point I think counseling is your only option. A counselor is going to help the two of you find ways of talking about the things that you have no way of resolving. You'll have a chance to confront all of the issues that you've been having-- no just the lack of intimacy, but the emotional abuse as well, and you may find that it brings you more effective ways of dealing with things.

Consider it.

I will consider it, but probably as a last resort. I'd literally have to save for that. In addition to that I'd be incredibly critical of the counselors methods, opinions, and timing. I'd probably be asking as many questions as he/she would. Questions like, why is that relevant? Why do YOU feel that way? Why are we doing most of the talking? I would be extremely aware of the time spent in counseling versus noticeable results ratio.

[Gigabitch]

I think you're being shifty about the counseling. I've rarely seen someone so averse to at least giving it a shot. I think you must have some concerns about what the counselor would have to say about you.

I'd love to be wrong about this. Convince me.

[lahnnabell]

I'm not trying to tell you that either of you is right. But you have been indulging her behavior for the last several years, and so it's become habit. You have perpetuated this.

It took me a while to realize that I used to do the same thing. When I broke up with my college boyfriend, it was a huge mess. It started out having to do with his own insecurity which gradually became emotional abuse. I got burned a lot because I put up with it. And I don't mean that he and I needed to sit down and have a talk about it because I tried that and it always failed. I should have stopped indulging his behavior. When he wanted to shout at me, I should have calmly left the scene. When he started berating me, I should have calmly left the scene. Instead I stuck around and babied him and the result was that he started acting like a baby all the time.

I gave him no room to take responsibility for his actions and we eventually hit a point where everything just began to crumble out from under us. I think he and I would have ended regardless, but I know I could've helped by taking more proactive steps that didn't involve disrespecting myself to keep him in my life.

One person has to step up here and big the bigger person, and NOT by rubbing in their partner's face. You simply have to start leading by example. It's not about losing your dignity, or throwing aside your principles, it's about taking one for the team SELFLESSLY. Which means you don't put yourself on a pedestal while your partner grovels at your feet. You lead by example with grace and composure. Not to one up the other person.

[RdHrshyKss]

Its funny how you can feel so "right" in the moment and realize later that you went about something totally wrong.

oh man, i know EXACTLY what you are saying...but it is in those moments when you feel so "right" and you control yourself that makes all the difference. by retaliating you are giving her an excuse to bitch at you and that's where the never-ending cycle begins. she thinks that you don't care about her, so she acts like a bitch to show you that she is upset, expecting that if you love her, you'll console her or that you'll at least inquire as to what's bothering her. as a woman who has a temper of my own, who was raised by a woman who had a major temper, i think she has some major insecurity issues and is looking to you for reassurance in an immature way.

I usually see her attitude and get pissed at her having an attitude and add it to "the jar" (figurative, of course). Once I've dealt with enough attitude that "the jar" is full and I can't contain my disgust any longer things like this happen.

LOL, this is pretty much verbatim what my bf said to me when our relationship was at a really crappy point. but you need to realize that this "jar" of yours is a chip that you are holding on your shoulder. and it means that you are out there waiting for her to do some stupid shit to add to your jar. it produces a negative outlook towards your relationship. and i call it a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. if you are always on guard for her crap, not necessarily looking for it (although you could be), but just staying prepared for it, then it is most likely going to occur because your mindset is already in that negative place. it sucks, but the only way you'll be able to progress is to let go of that jar. forget about the past and only look at the now and where you want to be in the future.

I didn't post about it, but something similar actually happened over the 4th of July weekend. We were out of town at her sister's house and Friday, Saturday, and most of Sunday were fine. Sunday evening she got pissy because she decided to cook something else and everyone went outside. If I remember correctly it wasn't necessary for her to cook anything else. She got snappy when I was in the kitchen with her (plink.... one in the jar) Then her daughter broke her cousin's brand new toy by throwing it down the steps (and I mean only out the package for an hour or so). Anyway she knows better and discipline was in order. She was to stand in the corner until we figured out something out. I thought that a pop on the buns was appropriate, but my wife didn't think so. I agreed and then proposed that she pay 1/2 of the toy's worth to her aunt. She didn't want that to go down either, but I told her that it was going to happen. Her daughter's money wasn't with her, so she had to get money from her purse to give to her aunt (to be replaced once we returned home). She got pissed then because she thought paying for the toy was stupid and she felt like I was rushing her to get the money. More attitude, more in the jar. THEN I told her daughter to come out of the corner and what was going to happen. Her uncle was very upset and punished his daughter (who was involved), while warning that nothing else was to happen that weekend. I told her (wife's daughter) to mind her speech and actions for the remainder of our visit or she might get popped. Not 10 minutes later we are sitting at the table and she (the daughter) starts saying some rather ill mannered things to her cousin. My exact words were "are you thinking about what you are saying?". My wife immediately chimes in "you need to stop being so hard on her", with attitude of course. Jar full. I looked at her and said "first off, I wasn't talking to you, second there was no need for you to say anything". I apparently had my finger raised (which I didn't remember doing, but she had no reason to lie about it when we fought about it later). Was what I said inappropriate and disrespectful? Yes, but there is a reason for it (as outlined). Yes I've heard the saying "you don't fight fire with fire", but I'm only human. Not to mention that I have little tolerance from years of the same shit. When not dealing with ignorance, arrogance, or attitude I can be one of the most laid back people you'll ever meet. The "jar" came about after years of dealing with her. I feel like I'm just rambling now, so I'll stop...

what a crappy situation. so annoying, but could have been avoided in many ways...
(1) when your wife was getting pissy, you could have gone up to her and in a comforting way ask her what's wrong, if she needed help with anything, what you could do to help her relax a bit. instead your mentality was, "she's pissy and taking it out on me, screw her". you weren't interested in why she was pissy in the first place. at first glance one might assume that her plans were getting messed up so she was aggravated, but underneath it could have been something more. it's your job as her partner to support her when she needs it and this might have been one of those times where she just needed someone to show her a little appreciation.
(2) when you and your wife were arguing about how to discipline her daughter, you didn't mention your wife having any suggestions. you gave one, she didn't like it, you gave another, she didn't like that either, and you pretty much said, "i don't care what you want, i'm doing it my way". horrible communication here. you are both parents, and when it comes to discipline you both need to be on the same page, otherwise your daughter is going to know the deal and take advantage (which happened with the bad talking later). plus your wife had to cough up money from her own wallet to support your disciplining decision that she didn't agree with in the first place. i'd be pissed too.
(3) what you said to your daughter (i don't understand this reference of "her daughter", you guys are married and her daughter is equally yours) was spot on, but because of all the crap that went on beforehand, with your wife feeling like she was undermined as a parent in the disciplining process, your wife decided to put her 2 cents in to undermine you. and then you came back at her with your reply and a demeaning finger that would make her feel even more undermined, like she's being scolded by her father. you guys are battling back and forth in this power struggle and neither of you want to relent, so it's going to go on and on until one of you kicks over and dies (figuratively). and now your daughter is caught in the middle of you two bickering. if anything, stop this childishness for the sake of the child. do you want your daughter to grow up thinking that the way you two behave towards each other is normal, is what she deserves? it's not fair to her.

i don't know, everything you've mentioned sounds SOOOOO similar to what my bf and i have gone through. but with time and patience (LOTS OF IT) and dedication, you guys can turn the car around. stop driving in this destructive path. i was in a very similar situation, almost exactly the same, and i decided that it was time to stop playing the blaming game. if i wanted things to change, i needed to change. so i've been concentrating on myself...my behaviors. i actively try, day in and day out to be in a better mood. to treat my bf with the same amount of respect that i want him to give me. and i do all of this without demanding the same from him. i hope that my changes in behavior (behaviors that eventually leave him caring less and less about the situation) will give him the boost he needs to start actively changing his own behaviors. and over the past few weeks, this is exactly what has happened. for the first time in a long time i can say that we have had sex every night for the past week (and i have either initiated it or wanted it every time!) it's an amazing feeling to get control of yourself. that's all you can do because you sure as hell can't control your wife, only she can do that. stop worrying about your wife's behaviors. sit down and have a conversation with her. explain to her in a productive/positive way what you KNOW you need to change about yourself. then give her the opportunity to do the same for herself. this way you aren't dictating to her what you want her to do and she isn't doing the same for you. this way you are both taking responsibility for your own actions and taking the proper steps to find a balance. and then move forward and don't look back.

i wish you tons of luck and i'd really like to hear updates on how you guys are doing. it's not going to be easy, but if you are serious about sticking with this marriage, then take those steps to change and things will have nowhere to go but up.