What is Love?

[Jolicoeur]

But how can people stay together for 15+ years that don't love each other? I've been asking myself this question for a very long time.

A more appropriate question is why they should.

I feel obligated to take care of her because she is my wife, I've been doing it for 10 years or so, and she is the mother of my children. Honestly, I want to leave because of the kids.

Do you want to take your children with you? Do you think your wife would let you? And do you think your friend at work would have a relationship with a divorced father of two?

this thread seems to have turned into a soulmate discussion rather then what love is.

Ok, fair enough. I agree with LoneWolfie that love is a chemical reaction in our brain as an evolutionary result to keep people long enough together to assure offspring. It operates at a higher level than pure carnal lust, and is arguably more powerful. But it is a fading emotion. At best it is replaced by respect and appreciation, which can last much longer.

If you truly are a good person, I'm sure you can work to have a caring relationship for your entire life. But the fickle rules of attraction make it a difficult game with rare winners.

[muddblood]

A more appropriate question is why they should.

Very good question!!! For me, I guess because I thought I'd never get any else.

Do you want to take your children with you?

Joint custody, as long as she stays in the same state (Colorado)

Do you think your wife would let you?

I think she'd be ok with joint custody.

And do you think your friend at work would have a relationship with a divorced father of two?

My friend at work...yeah, long story, but basically she "says" she wants nothing more than to be friends. But it doesn't matter. I've learned so much from her and know (NOW) that there will many, many others.

Ok, fair enough. I agree with LoneWolfie that love is a chemical reaction in our brain as an evolutionary result to keep people long enough together to assure offspring. It operates at a higher level than pure carnal lust, and is arguably more powerful. But it is a fading emotion. At best it is replaced by respect and appreciation, which can last much longer.

Really?!?! Hmmmmm. I guess I could live with respect and appreciation from myself and her.

If you truly are a good person, I'm sure you can work to have a caring relationship for your entire life. But the fickle rules of attraction make it a difficult game with rare winners.

I like to think I'm a good person, does that count?

[muddblood]

So then if love is a chemical reaction in the brain that fades over time, your saying getting married is pointless? Why get married if the love fades and you'll want someone else after some time?

[lahnnabell]

For me, unconditional love is an appreciation of that person as they are. It doesn't mean you don't argue, or don't falter yourself sometimes, but you understand the bigger picture and it always comes back to respect and love. Finding another person with the same ideals is very difficult which is why I don't believe in soul mates. Every person is intricately different in millions of ways and its part of that mystery that makes the whole process a big game. People need to stop treating it like not having a soul mate is the end of existence. That is pure co-dependence.

[muddblood]

For me, unconditional love is an appreciation of that person as they are. It doesn't mean you don't argue, or don't falter yourself sometimes, but you understand the bigger picture and it always comes back to respect and love. Finding another person with the same ideals is very difficult which is why I don't believe in soul mates. Every person is intricately different in millions of ways and its part of that mystery that makes the whole process a big game. People need to stop treating it like not having a soul mate is the end of existence. That is pure co-dependence.

Lahnnabell, thanks. I've heard similar responses - basically love is not wanting to change someone. So if/when someone changes in the relationship, does one's love for them change? So far, it sounds like everything I have for my wife, but there is still something missing; something that I've found with 2 others (so far) and it's really driving me insane! Maybe it is that chemical reaction and maybe it will fade over time for the other two.

Good point about soul mate=co-dependence.

[lahnnabell]

Soul mate doesn't equal co-dependence. A person who relies on the idea of the existence a soul mate is co-dependent. People treat their lives like their only mission is to find their soul mate and then everything else will make sense. It doesn't work like that. Existence is a lot more complex than that.

I think you're missing chemistry with your wife. You can love someone very much, but still fail to have strong chemistry. Chemistry is a rather instinctive feeling and each person's personal chemistry reacts different to everyone else's. Like I said, you can still love and respect this woman for a number of reasons (she's comfortable, sensitive, caring) but that isn't necessarily enough to make you feel passionately about her.

And to answer your question, it depends. Some people are lucky enough to find a person with the same growth rates and patterns so that they always manage to find themselves on the same page. I think that's kind of the realistic side of a soul mate situation. More often than not because we're all so different we have to make compromises for the people in our lives. My boyfriend and I have to do it all the time. I love to dine out at nice restaurants while he's perfectly happy to eat fast food. We have to meet in the middle. We're both also pretty easy-going so we're comfortable being frank and honest when we're pissing each other off. We don't have passive-aggressive fights, we don't lie to each other, and we can argue and get over it in about 5 minutes. Because we know that there's way more important things than holding a stupid grudge or being right all the time.

[muddblood]

Soul mate doesn't equal co-dependence. A person who relies on the idea of the existence a soul mate is co-dependent. People treat their lives like their only mission is to find their soul mate and then everything else will make sense. It doesn't work like that. Existence is a lot more complex than that.

I think you're missing chemistry with your wife. You can love someone very much, but still fail to have strong chemistry. Chemistry is a rather instinctive feeling and each person's personal chemistry reacts different to everyone else's. Like I said, you can still love and respect this woman for a number of reasons (she's comfortable, sensitive, caring) but that isn't necessarily enough to make you feel passionately about her.

And to answer your question, it depends. Some people are lucky enough to find a person with the same growth rates and patterns so that they always manage to find themselves on the same page. I think that's kind of the realistic side of a soul mate situation. More often than not because we're all so different we have to make compromises for the people in our lives. My boyfriend and I have to do it all the time. I love to dine out at nice restaurants while he's perfectly happy to eat fast food. We have to meet in the middle. We're both also pretty easy-going so we're comfortable being frank and honest when we're pissing each other off. We don't have passive-aggressive fights, we don't lie to each other, and we can argue and get over it in about 5 minutes. Because we know that there's way more important things than holding a stupid grudge or being right all the time.

Your boyfriend is an EXTREMELY luck man! This last post makes A TON of sense! WOW!! Thank you very much.

[lahnnabell]

Your boyfriend is an EXTREMELY luck man! This last post makes A TON of sense! WOW!! Thank you very much.

Awww, thank you. That means a lot. Believe me, he and I didn't always have it this good. When we started dating earlier this year I was still butt-hurt over a break up I went through last year. It took me a long time to really warm up to him, but he was totally comfortable hanging in there. He never pressured me and left me alone when I needed space. I'm very thankful for him because he's a rock.

Our chemistry has changed, but for the better. I was still so hurt over my ex at first that I started to sabotage the budding relationship with my BF. His steadfastness is what won me over in the end and our relationship has grown from there. I've always started relationships based on my immediate attraction and every time it ended in tears and sadness. So I'm wondering if this new approach will mean better things for the future

[muddblood]

Awww, thank you. That means a lot. Believe me, he and I didn't always have it this good. When we started dating earlier this year I was still butt-hurt over a break up I went through last year. It took me a long time to really warm up to him, but he was totally comfortable hanging in there. He never pressured me and left me alone when I needed space. I'm very thankful for him because he's a rock.

Our chemistry has changed, but for the better. I was still so hurt over my ex at first that I started to sabotage the budding relationship with my BF. His steadfastness is what won me over in the end and our relationship has grown from there. I've always started relationships based on my immediate attraction and every time it ended in tears and sadness. So I'm wondering if this new approach will mean better things for the future

You are most welcome. I'm sure you and your boyfriend will be just fine - you seem to really get each other and understand each other. And speaking of understanding each other, my wife and I don't seem to understand each other, but this girl I work with, we understand each other to a tee, which makes it so much harder to let her go.

[lahnnabell]

Why are you staying with your wife then? There's no shame in admitting when a relationship has run dry. Seems like you stuck with her in the attempt to be honorable, but where is that getting you? You've created your own personal hell by staying in an unfulfilling marriage.

However, I definitely don't support relationships between coworkers. The office is like a little facet of Facebook. Everyone networks, chats about stuff, and more importantly everyone gossips. Let's say you two start a relationship and try to keep it a secret. People do pick up on innuendo, even over the internet and through text. Imagine what kind of wildfire it could turn into an actual office, where you have face time with a number of people. And then if it doesn't work out, things can get mighty awkward and can even jeopardize your job.

[muddblood]

Why are you staying with your wife then? There's no shame in admitting when a relationship has run dry. Seems like you stuck with her in the attempt to be honorable, but where is that getting you? You've created your own personal hell by staying in an unfulfilling marriage.

Why stay with her? I guess the only reason I have is because I still care about her (even though she doesn't think I do). The hell comes from knowing something is missing and knowing it can be found in someone else.

[QUOTE=lahnnabell;736941 However, I definitely don't support relationships between coworkers. The office is like a little facet of Facebook. Everyone networks, chats about stuff, and more importantly everyone gossips. Let's say you two start a relationship and try to keep it a secret. People do pick up on innuendo, even over the internet and through text. Imagine what kind of wildfire it could turn into an actual office, where you have face time with a number of people. And then if it doesn't work out, things can get mighty awkward and can even jeopardize your job. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah, I know dating co-workers never ever works out and she know that too. In fact, it's one of her excuses for not dating me, along with she has a boyfriend she hates and can't stand and has kicked out 3 times and I'm too tall for her (that's my favorite excuse!). I'm not even sure I want a relationship with her because she said she has absolutely no feelings for me at all, and I will not get involved in a one sided relationship. If she ever said yes to me, I'd freeze and not know what to do. It's ok though, I know there will be others and I know how to identify this "chemistry" that is currently missing. Thanks again for your input!

[lahnnabell]

If you really care about her, you'll let her go and find someone she can truly find happiness with. You're doing more harm than good by staying with her. I'd want any guy I was with to do me the same courtesy. It's gonna hurt at first, but it feels WORLDS better after the healing can begin. That's what happened with my ex last year. He moved away and while we still cared about each other, we knew distance was never going to work (especially at 3,000 miles). We talked for a few months afterward and tried to keep it together because we missed each other, but it was just dragging out what was already inevitable. Eventually we both got busy (me with my new job position and him with starting up a life in a new place) and our contact dwindled to almost nothing.

We had closure in January when he returned for a week. We had dinner and on the way home I started crying. I tried really hard to be strong and hide it because I don't like to cry in front of people. It's a very vulnerable state in which I prefer to be alone. After he dropped me off I cried so hard. I cried in the arms of my neighbor and very close friend. We met up once more before he left for coffee and I was much more clear-headed. I told him that I appreciated the closure and that despite how much I'd been hurting I knew that my healing could really begin. I also told him that I liked how the relationship had changed me for the better because I learned a lot more about myself. I was very proud it ended on such a good note.

Though I sometimes still miss him I know what I have now is much more solid. I can see the flaws in the former relationship with a fresh objectivity that allowed me to make the room in my heart to move on and find someone new.

[Jolicoeur]

Very good question!!! For me, I guess because I thought I'd never get any else.

Hmm, I think this is a very common situation.

My friend at work...yeah, long story, but basically she "says" she wants nothing more than to be friends. But it doesn't matter. I've learned so much from her and know (NOW) that there will many, many others.

I didn't understand this right away, but a later post of yours clarified this. Good for you.

I like to think I'm a good person, does that count?

I think you are, but then again, I think I am too and I'm sure so do Steve Jobs, George W. Bush and Muammar Gaddafi.

I meant good in the sense that you care for the other as much as you care for yourself. Of what I've read about you the only part that makes me doubt (a little) is this messing up your relationship with your high school sweetheart.

Basically I think we are animals with instincts and feelings, and a slim layer of intelligence. We are slave to our emotions, but we have some control over our actions. When love fades (and it almost always does) you have the choice to work at respect your partner, who most likely never loves you exactly the same amount as you do, and probably has mixed feeling at different moments, just like you, but not at the same time. If you can work with her past these difficult situations (like I think lahnnabell does), you can make it work for a very very long time.

So then if love is a chemical reaction in the brain that fades over time, your saying getting married is pointless? Why get married if the love fades and you'll want someone else after some time?

I don't believe in marriage as a guarantee for enless love. I don't think it's totally pointless either. It serves as a spectacular romantic device (the proposal, the first dance) and it has legal advantages (material protection). But because of its cultural significance, it does also have a profound psychological impact on both partners.

Now this may sound stoic and cynical, but I am in a emotional mess of my own. For almost four years now I have been secretly in love with someone I'll probably never be with. My common sense dictates that this feeling will fade too some day, but my emotional side is convinced that I could love this girl for centuries. If I ever get together with her, I vow I will work my fingers to the bone every day of the rest of my life to make her happy.

We had closure in January when he returned for a week. We had dinner and on the way home I started crying. I tried really hard to be strong and hide it because I don't like to cry in front of people.

Reading this brought tears to my eyes. Life is so cruel. I hope you'll be happy forever, girl.

[muddblood]

If you really care about her, you'll let her go and find someone she can truly find happiness with. You're doing more harm than good by staying with her. I'd want any guy I was with to do me the same courtesy. It's gonna hurt at first, but it feels WORLDS better after the healing can begin. That's what happened with my ex last year. He moved away and while we still cared about each other, we knew distance was never going to work (especially at 3,000 miles). We talked for a few months afterward and tried to keep it together because we missed each other, but it was just dragging out what was already inevitable. Eventually we both got busy (me with my new job position and him with starting up a life in a new place) and our contact dwindled to almost nothing.

We had closure in January when he returned for a week. We had dinner and on the way home I started crying. I tried really hard to be strong and hide it because I don't like to cry in front of people. It's a very vulnerable state in which I prefer to be alone. After he dropped me off I cried so hard. I cried in the arms of my neighbor and very close friend. We met up once more before he left for coffee and I was much more clear-headed. I told him that I appreciated the closure and that despite how much I'd been hurting I knew that my healing could really begin. I also told him that I liked how the relationship had changed me for the better because I learned a lot more about myself. I was very proud it ended on such a good note.

Though I sometimes still miss him I know what I have now is much more solid. I can see the flaws in the former relationship with a fresh objectivity that allowed me to make the room in my heart to move on and find someone new.

Awww...Thanks for that. The only problem is neither one of have any where else to go (I know excuses, excuses, right?). She has no job and can't support herself, she has no friends or relatives in CO (where we live), her mom in OH doesn't want her, her step dad who lives with and is married to her mom kicked her out when we started dating because he was very attracted to her, and she can't live with her dad in NM because of a very emotional past. My only real option is to send her back to OH to live with her mom in the country with no car and hope for the best. Or move out myself and force her to get a job, but everyone says I should keep the house since it's my name on mortgage, my credit that got us the loan, and my money paying it off. I'd love to let her go, but where would she go? And when she is gone, I'd still need to keep in touch some so she could sign the divorce papers when finances allow me to file. Yes, it truly is hell!!!!

[lahnnabell]

Well, it's not really your fault that she doesn't have much of an outlet. It sucks that she's rather estranged from her family for very frustrating reasons. You're not a bad person because you don't want to be a part of her life. She may have trouble seeing it that way at first, but I guarantee you she'll learn a lot about her capabilities as a person. No woman should put herself in a position without helpful connections. I learned that when I moved to San Diego (where I've lived for 3 years now) with my ex. We broke up after 6 months of living out here together, and at that time I had at least one connection that helped me get a new place and provided emotional support to get me through the break up. I moved out in one weekend and began my healing process.

You can help find a situation for her that will allow you two to begin the separation process. But you can't keep holding onto her out of fear for her. You're only going to feel more and more resentful over time.