Apologists for Evil

[IndiReloaded]

I think these are the real issues that need to be brought to light. The cloth as you said is harmless and has many meanings, it is the teachings which encourage that kind of behaviour (random abuse of women) that are the problem. I doubt many Muslims are proud of issues like this and would themselves want to find a way to solve problems like this. I believe that if we concentrate our attention on important issues like teachings on vile perception of women without stereotyping or attacking or alienating sections of community together (us and them) we can find solutions to these problems.

I agree completely with this, Mish! 100%

But, lets extend your very correct theoretical point towards something more practical, by way of solution.

So, lets say we have a woman, muslim, who is being raped by her husband. With or w/o the symbolic burqua, I don't frankly care.

Or, we have a child who is dying from denied medical treatment b/c its against her parents religion.

Or, we have children being taught (brainwashed) religious dogma before they have reached the age of reason to decide for themselves if religion is of interest to them.

So. How would you handle these situations, Mish? They are ALL infringements of one person's basic freedoms by another.

Let's hear it, Mish. I want to know what you would do. Not some utopian sop about how things should be. What will YOU do, as someone who professes to care about such issues, to evoke this enlightenment we all need?

Or, is it someone else's job to actually make this change happen?

[ecojeanne]

gwan mish answer her, she really needs to show's she's on top..teehee, i bet she'll have something to say back, watch and wait, the puppet dances....

[IndiReloaded]

Crazy Eco.

I never know how to respond to you.

Poor doll. No date again this Sat night?

I'm off to dinner out. You can answer too, you know. Try to think of something intelligent by the time I get back.

[ecojeanne]

^^^are you talkin to me or fras? if fras; he has a gf. if me (taking into account where the quote came from) are you saying i would have to be desperate to think fras was hot?

lol keep diggin that hole lovey, you're so good at it.

[ecojeanne]

i thought this was a good way to lighten up about Arabs and their culture.

this guy is hilarious


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj74bbRxFus&feature=related"]YouTube - Omid Djalili on HBO (part 2)[/ame]

[Mish]

But I'm fairly certain Gribble and a few others made that point very early on in the thread, if not exactly in those words.

That's not the impression I got from Gribble's post. The impression I got is that the Muslim women need to be blamed once again, that they should be made feel not respected that by wearing the Hijab they are bringing what's coming onto themselves. That by wearing the Hijab (a symbol of their culture) they somehow deserve to be mistreated. That's what I strongly disagree with.

Originally Posted by View Post
As I said, let them wear it. But don't smile and pretend it's okay, either. Treat them as they deserve to be treated. Glare at the men, make them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. Let them know in no uncertain terms that if they cannot control themselves around civilized, self-respecting women they will pay dearly. Let the women know that you have no respect for anyone who would willingly degrade themselves.

[Mish]

I agree completely with this, Mish! 100%

But, lets extend your very correct theoretical point towards something more practical, by way of solution.

So, lets say we have a woman, muslim, who is being raped by her husband. With or w/o the symbolic burqua, I don't frankly care.

Or, we have a child who is dying from denied medical treatment b/c its against her parents religion.

Or, we have children being taught (brainwashed) religious dogma before they have reached the age of reason to decide for themselves if religion is of interest to them.

So. How would you handle these situations, Mish? They are ALL infringements of one person's basic freedoms by another.

Let's hear it, Mish. I want to know what you would do. Not some utopian sop about how things should be. What will YOU do, as someone who professes to care about such issues, to evoke this enlightenment we all need?

Or, is it someone else's job to actually make this change happen?

First of all I'm not qualified to answer these questions, I don't have a legal degree or a degree in sociology or some other humanist degree so it really is NOT my job to come with a solution to these serious problems, it's a solution that needs to be worked on between our social, political and community leaders together with leaders from the Muslim community on a platform of assistance to the Muslim community.

But let's say for example I had the power to make these changes, what direction would I look at to assist them? I would look for creation of crisis services staffed by members from Muslim community that people in need can turn to, staff who are aware of these issues (perhaps ones who experienced these issues themselves) and who genuinely want to help their peers with these serious problems. These services would have power to provide resources like food and shelter when needed with legal backing where necessary. I would create awareness in Muslim community of these problems with recent examples and look for Muslim leaders who understand these serious issues and who could help to solve them, who could perhaps become the next Islamic leaders preaching at mosques who would change the vile teachings with ones understanding of women. What I would NOT do and highly oppose is the banning of items and symbols of strong Religious and cultural significance. I would spread awareness in the wider community about the history of Islamic culture and their past contributions to the world and ask for understanding as well as condemnation of stereotyping.

[IndiReloaded]

First of all I'm not qualified to answer these questions, I don't have a legal degree or a degree in sociology or some other humanist degree so it really is NOT my job to come with a solution to these serious problems, it's a solution that needs to be worked on between our social, political and community leaders together with leaders from the Muslim community on a platform of assistance to the Muslim community.

Mish, I won't comment further except to say I am extraordinarily disappointed with your response. Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. Very much so.

Perhaps someone else will explain to you why, but I doubt you will accept any explanation that I give. Except to say that I don't have a deep contempt for much in this world. Except for the statement "Its not my job". Or "I can't".

BTW, this has nothing to do with my so-called 'privileged' life, either. As I explained to Eco, I don't think I am in any better position than most other people to effect changes to our society. In fact, I'm probably more of a social democrat than you have ever met in your life (thus far).

[Yggdrasil]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQWxHIn4U"]YouTube - abc Primetime - How Muslims Are Treated In USA[/ame]

[IndiReloaded]

Good. Now can you post one about how white women are treated in Saudi Arabia?

[Yggdrasil]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlwc0mE0lCU"]YouTube - Hero Muslim saves Jew from Christian Thugs on NY Subway[/ame]

[IndiReloaded]

LOL, Ygg. Well, now I'm convinced. Youtube vids always do it for me.

But here, this is from abc news as well, lol:

[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4420162&page=1[/url]

and the vid:

[url]http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/saudi-woman-drives-for-youtube-protest/[/url]

[Yggdrasil]

Ignorance is bliss.

[IndiReloaded]

No kidding Ygg. Here, allow me to enlighten you:

How about something a bit more upscale, than US news sources:

[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3618333/My-life-inside-the-Saudi-kingdom.html[/url]

Or even (gasp) an actual, reputable foreign affairs journal?

[url]http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/2009%20-%20Summer/full-Bachrach.html[/url]

[Yggdrasil]

No kidding Ygg. Here, allow me to enlighten you:

I wasn't talking about my ignorance. Nice projection though

Again I am saying: refrain from stereotyping. There are two sides to the coin.

If you are in a foreign country, you adjust to their customs. That means if you visit, work or live in Saudi Arabia, you dress, live and behave accordingly. There's no room for 'western civilized arrogance'. That again goes both ways, Saudia Arabians who visit are 'western civilized countries', are expected to integrate just as well. All the rest is bullshit.

Now.. to get back on topic: what does a piece of clothing have to do with all of this? Nothing. Just like a cross has nothing to do with all of this.

What many conveniently forget to mention is (oh yes, it may crumble your worldview): that in many (if not most) Muslim countries, there are many voices going up more equality, better treatment, etc.

What many (again conveniently) forget on top of that, is that this is not our fight, but their fight. We can not 'liberate' them. That's theirs to achieve.

Whatever it takes I guess to stay stuck in what I consider western stereotypical, hatefull, racist and biassed views. I refuse to bring myself down to that level.

For you it's a matter of being right, for me, it's a matter of seeing both sides of the coin and understand what is really going on. Something that nobody has managed to demonstrate in this thread. In other words: this is not a black and white thing, no matter how much you would like it to be black and white.

That said: this conversation is over.