Why are guys so mean?

[shh!]

Maybe they're just a bit more willing to accept me for who I am than you are. Irony at it's best..

Actually, I was thinking about this a lot after I posted last night - why WOULD Jewish boys not object to your use of a swastika? I mean, you would never get away with using a burning cross around black boys; they would simply beat your ass. I am guessing they feel too intimidated to speak up - for whatever reason that may be - and probably are likely ashamed of their lack of courage. People laugh about things they don't consider funny all the time as a way to deal with conflicting emotions/stress. But I can guarantee you these boys would never let you visit them at home with their families if you were wearing a swastika on your Tshit.

Think about it now, why would their children be offended by the swastika?. Because they were raised to.

Of COURSE they were raised to fear/be offended by the swastika. Likewise, I would EXPECT blacks to teach their children to fear/be offended by a burning cross. It would be irrepsonsible NOT to teach them the meaning of symbols, because that lack of knowledge could, in fact, jeopardize their physical safety.

I never said it was "okay". I stated that the majority of people that reject the symbol, do so blindly. It baffles me the amount of people that still call it a "nazi symbol". Not because they choose to, but because they know nothing else...

I will concede that many people may not be aware of the swastika's alternative meanings, but this does not negate the fact that it is most commonly understood as a symbol of hate in Western countries. Why else would hate groups use it, if not to instill fear and intimidation in minority populations?

Oh...so...cross burning is okay...but swastikas aren't because Christians get upset by people who are offended by it?..

NO! You misundertand my meaning. I don't think I articulated myself very well on this point. No Christian would defend the use of a burning cross. They are as offended by it as anyone else would be. The burning cross is a symbol of oppression, but the cross is also a symbol of strength for their victims, and the cross itself never became a symbol of hopelessness. Also, the cross does not evoke white supremacy in Western culture the way the swastika evokes Nazism and white supremacy.

And I don't believe I'll ever regret it. What I do regret are all the years I was scared to admit my admiration of the swastika. I regret having to act politically correct by placing a big "no" sign over it whenever I drew one so that I wouldn't harrassed about it.

And I think it's too bad you can be so scornful of my belief and opinion by simply shrugging it off as ignorance and insensitivity as a result of my youth.

If I were simply shrugging it off, I wouldn't have bothered discussing it with you at all. As to whether or not you will grow to regret dismissing the very real pain and fear symbols evoke, well, only time will tell.

[shh!]

Frasbee - I appreciate you changing your signature, but don't think I haven't noticed you replaced it with another symbol representing a regime that brutally killed many millions in the service of its ideologies. I am just tired of arguing with you.

[whaywardj]

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. *sigh*

[Junket]

Actually, I was thinking about this a lot after I posted last night - why WOULD Jewish boys not object to your use of a swastika? I mean, you would never get away with using a burning cross around black boys; they would simply beat your ass. I am guessing they feel too intimidated to speak up - for whatever reason that may be - and probably are likely ashamed of their lack of courage. People laugh about things they don't consider funny all the time as a way to deal with conflicting emotions/stress. But I can guarantee you these boys would never let you visit them at home with their families if you were wearing a swastika on your Tshit.

This is the most appalling thing you have said to me so far. Your boldness in this statement is due to your complete and utter lack of knowledge of me and my friends. Maybe they don't care because it doesn't matter. Does it matter that they're jewish? No, I don't give a ****. Do they care that I'm not? No, they don't and they've only proved it time and time again by inviting me over to their houses to hang out. And I've actually had a discussion with Sam's parents about the swastika, and they didn't have a problem understanding it. Maltby is Jewish my birth but his mother follows a the hindu faith. Both families are very open minded and don't judge a person so easily by what symbols they like to draw in their free time. I've never intimidated a person into being "friends" with me and your defamation of my friendships is simply a dirty low point of your argument. You're beginning to reduce this argument into a series of hits below the belt. You seriously couldn't have said that and believed it. Because if you have you've lost a lot a credibility in my book.

Of COURSE they were raised to fear/be offended by the swastika. Likewise, I would EXPECT blacks to teach their children to fear/be offended by a burning cross. It would be irrepsonsible NOT to teach them the meaning of symbols, because that lack of knowledge could, in fact, jeopardize their physical safety.

Teaching somebody to be afraid of something such as that will not protect anybody. You teach them about it. You teach them the history, the viewpoints, you teach them how and why. You don't teach them to cover their eyes. Children will learn decide for themselves.

I will concede that many people may not be aware of the swastika's alternative meanings, but this does not negate the fact that it is most commonly understood as a symbol of hate in Western countries. Why else would hate groups use it, if not to instill fear and intimidation in minority populations?

You know why they continue to use it?

Because we gave it to them.

We let them have it. We basically told them that the swastika is a bad and evil symbol only reserved for the likes of them to use against us.

And mind you, minorities love to be ostracized. This way their special treatment is justified. Now I'm not talking about your average minority. I'm talking about your "proud to be-" minorities. They claim to be the oppressed and expect reparations. Here is a symbol I would grow cautious of.

NO! You misundertand my meaning. I don't think I articulated myself very well on this point. No Christian would defend the use of a burning cross. They are as offended by it as anyone else would be. The burning cross is a symbol of oppression, but the cross is also a symbol of strength for their victims, and the cross itself never became a symbol of hopelessness. Also, the cross does not evoke white supremacy in Western culture the way the swastika evokes Nazism and white supremacy.

The cross never a symbol of hopelessness? Could you say that to all the people that were forced or persuaded out of fear to convert to Christianity?
Convert or die.

That's a pretty hopeless situation if you ask me.

Would you say the symbol's meaning has changed since then?

Also tell me why these symbols offend you. Because if they don't, they should.

If I were simply shrugging it off, I wouldn't have bothered discussing it with you at all. As to whether or not you will grow to regret dismissing the very real pain and fear symbols evoke, well, only time will tell.

There simply is nothing to regret here.

What I find humorous is that the hammer and sickle, despite the many people murdered under it's symbolism is easily more socially acceptable than the swastika.

Stalin killed Jews too.

And more people than Hitler could have even dreamed of.

[whaywardj]

Nice move, BTW, Fras. I admire a guy who can be so damned irritating. Think about changing your SN to "Frazzle." Looks like you did just that to shh! lol.

[nomas]

Translated loosely:

"My mother always said, 'I'll never trust a country whose flag is full of work tools'" (referring to the Soviet Union commy flag) - Facundo Cabral

[whaywardj]

PS: THIS oughta scare everybody:

[url]http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1460235,00.html[/url]

Creeping conformity pervades. Very scary to me.

[Junket]

"I understand how the burden of history weighs upon my German colleagues' view," said Chris Davies, leader of the British Liberal Democrats in the European Parliament.


"However, banning symbols cannot ban evil and risks playing into the hands of those who would seek to subvert the very liberties we most champion," he added.

My point exactly in reference to our giving the swastika to those who most want to use it against us.

[whaywardj]

BTW, Fras: Why SHOULD I be offended by the symbols you posted; especially the Celtic Cross?

[Junket]

BTW, Fras: Why SHOULD I be offended by the symbols you posted; especially the Celtic Cross?

Because the Anti Defamation League says so.
And because the white supremacists want you to be.

The symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland; also used as a Christian symbol.

This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross. It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rune expresses faith in the pagan religion of Odinism and was originally a symbol of the Vikings

While not by nature a racist religion, Odinism is popular among white supremacists because its Old Norse origins are seen as representative of Aryan heritage and cultural pride. The symbol was common within Norse and ancient Germanic cultures and was later adopted by the Nazis for this reason. There are many variations of this symbol.

[whaywardj]

Thank you. I have been educated.

[nomas]

I can see both sides of the issue, but I'm siding with Frisbee on this one.

This is because I don't like the culture of political correctness, walking on eggshells as to not offend anyone.

The truth is people will be offended no matter what. There are people spread all accross the spectrum of sensitivity.

I am a minority myself, and I also prefer NOT to be the feel-sorry-for-myself type. Especially when I count my blessings. Even if "my people were oppressed" or "are being oppressed"..you know what, I'm not. Just because I'm in the hispanic demographic I won't count myself as part of the oppressed.

It's a matter of the culture you're submerged in.

Take this forum, for example. Especially those involved in this discussion. I consider you all very intelligent, educated individuals. This should lead to you being more open minded, as Frisbee suggests, to the fact that swastikas may have alternate meaning to different people and that the intent is not to offend.

On the other side of the coin you have Frisbee. Maybe he wanted a nice little argument..maybe he just wanted some attention..whatever the reason he put up a straight up swastika as his sig. No big deal. He took it right off.

Before even knowing what the swastika was associated with I too appreciated it's artistic symmetry. Upon education as to what it stood for, it lost it's appeal. No big deal to me either. "Oh well, I can't enjoy the pure art behind it less I offend some by it's ties to Holocaust suffering". Since it's no big deal anyway, I may as well be sensitive.

But if it was a big deal to me, like Frisbee, the rights of freedom of expression overrule the social encouragement to be sensitive to one another. My rule is, as long as you're not hurting others, you have the right to do as you will. He's not really pushing anything on anyone so he's still in his right.

Just as Sally is in her right to express her opinions about it.

[whaywardj]

Like many, I have a knee-jerk reaction to so-called offensive symbols, but I pride myself in being smart enough to know it's just a reaction. Moreover, one that may be based solely on acculturation ("propaganda"). So, I, generally, make a squeak just to make the "offending" parties aware of my initial impressions, and move on without trying to stuff my point of view down their throats as I pass by.

[Junket]

I am a minority myself, and I also prefer NOT to be the feel-sorry-for-myself type. Especially when I count my blessings. Even if "my people were oppressed" or "are being oppressed"..you know what, I'm not. Just because I'm in the hispanic demographic I won't count myself as part of the oppressed.

I've had a similar discussion with my friends upon that topic. I think a lot of people take the oppressed role because they think they should be. Not because they actually are. I guess it gives them some kind of false meaning in their existence. But whatever keeps you going I guess...

Like many, I have a knee-jerk reaction to so-called offensive symbols

Myself included.

I don't walk around assuming that anybody else portraying a swastika thinks the same way I do. I'm still cautious about those doing the same. How could I not be?

If I do find the swastika being portrayed in a racist fashion I can't help but be offended, less than I used to be, but offended nonetheless. For two reasons.

1.) I am not a supporter of any supremacist groups

2.) Their use of it in that way only strengthens the symbol's racist connotations for themselves and those they use it against.

[shh!]

I've actually had a discussion with Sam's parents about the swastika, and they didn't have a problem understanding it. .

I'm not having a problem understanding your position; I merely disagree with it.

I've never intimidated a person into being "friends" with me ...

Ahh, but that is not what I meant by your friends being intimidated! I see you as being outgoing and probably fairly charismatic. If your friends are not at least equally so, then it would be intimidating to oppose you publically. I did not mean to imply that you intimidate them in the way you interpreted it, and I am sorry you misunderstood my meaning. I can see I should have been more explicit.

The cross never a symbol of hopelessness? Could you say that to all the people that were forced or persuaded out of fear to convert to Christianity? Convert or die..

The cross itself is not seen as a symbol of hopelessness to blacks who wake to find burning crosses on their lawns - a burning one is. And no, I couldn't say that to people who were forced to convert, since they are all dead as far as I know. I could be wrong, but I think forced conversions to Christianity ended with the Spanish Inquisition. And yes, the symbols you posted would offend most people if they knew what they meant.

What I find humorous is that the hammer and sickle, despite the many people murdered under it's symbolism is easily more socially acceptable than the swastika. Stalin killed Jews too. And more people than Hitler could have even dreamed of.

Yes, but he was an equal-opportunity murderer. No one was immune.

Now, can we agree to just disagree on this issue?