Vile Beasts

[Mish]

I say creatures, beasts and monsters because that's what they are. When you participate in the gang rape of a 15 year old girl you are no longer human. Perhaps I shouldn't say beast, either. An animal doesn't understand the significance of its actions. These creatures do--hell, even if they don't, you still put a mad dog down. As such, I don't feel that torturing a rapist or a murderer is the same. They aren't human. They aren't animal . They are monster. What happens to monsters in the movies? Eventually someone corners it and destroys it violently. The vampire is staked to the Earth and left to fry in sunlight. The werewolf is shot with a sliver bullet. The zombie is decapitated.

By extension, let's begin eliminated the pedophile monsters, the serial killer monsters, the gangbanger monsters and so on. If we haven't the guts to eliminate them, let us at least keep them under lock and key for the rest of their lives.

Why the innocent women? Why not punish their tormentors in such a way that future crimes are greatly discouraged? Yeah, you can't take back what happened to those women, but you can prevent it from happening the next generation by setting a clear example that this behavior will NOT be tolerated.

Fair enough. I have a perfect solution for you then. It's called Sharia law. It means, you kill and you will be executed. You steal and your hands get chopped off. No one should dare to commit a crime ever right? Sounds good in theory doesn't it?

Take a quick look at countries which implemented it. Saudi Arabia for instance. According to their statistics, the crime rate is low. Is it the real criminals who are being tortured and executed though? Most of the criminals and sadists are in the government and police force doing all the "legal" torture and executions to keep the real power in the hands of the few. The real criminals found a legal way to release their perverted fantasies and in the end its the state instead of the individuals who became the monster. That's because building any legal policy around torture and easy execution is historically short sighted and only takes you this far.

[Gribble]

Look at Spain. When Francisco Franco called the shots you couldn't find a shred of marijuana if you turned that country upside down. Why? Because anyone caught with marijuana would be taken to prison, never to be seen or heard from again.

Definitely falls under the umbrella of excessive punishment, but focus that kind of punishment on a truly horrible crime and see what happens.

Violence works. You want peace? It takes war. You want safety? It takes executions, imprisonment and an armed body of authority.

You lay down the rule that the punishment for rape is castration and what will happen? People will continue to do it. And when the first hundred are rounded up, castrated, and thrown into the streets to bleed, suddenly the next hundred would-be rapists reconsider. You don't need to castrate one eighth of the population. You just need to castrate enough that the message gets across that you are willing to stand up.

[Mish]

Look at Spain. When Francisco Franco called the shots you couldn't find a shred of marijuana if you turned that country upside down. Why? Because anyone caught with marijuana would be taken to prison, never to be seen or heard from again.

Are you kidding me? Francisco Franco was a dictator and a mass murderer. There are mass graves all over Spain as a testament to his indiscriminate mass killings, up to 35,000 people lie buried in them. ([url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jul/17/spain.gilestremlett[/url]) A few criminals mixed with a vast majority of innocent men, women and children slaughtered at the behest of a mass murdering judge and executioner. Mass murder of innocent people deemed unlikeable by the government? That's the solution to the crime problem?

[Gribble]

My own relatives share some of those graves.

No. Mass murder isn't the solution. However, lessons can still be learned. The point is to focus a little of that on the right bunch of people.

[MVPlaya]

Look at Spain. When Francisco Franco called the shots you couldn't find a shred of marijuana if you turned that country upside down. Why? Because anyone caught with marijuana would be taken to prison, never to be seen or heard from again.

Definitely falls under the umbrella of excessive punishment, but focus that kind of punishment on a truly horrible crime and see what happens.

Violence works. You want peace? It takes war. You want safety? It takes executions, imprisonment and an armed body of authority.

You lay down the rule that the punishment for rape is castration and what will happen? People will continue to do it. And when the first hundred are rounded up, castrated, and thrown into the streets to bleed, suddenly the next hundred would-be rapists reconsider. You don't need to castrate one eighth of the population. You just need to castrate enough that the message gets across that you are willing to stand up.

You're not addressing my point, which is that excessive punishment simply creates new ills for society to deal with and ends a cycle of poverty and violence.

The fact is that excessive violence does not work. Excessive violence leaves society worse off than it was before you started your new policy. Politicians frequently pass bullshit laws that are far too excessive in terms of punishment, and which inevitably increase crime because the degree of punishment disqualifies criminals from ever having gainful employment. The lack of rehabilitation forces recidivism amongst ex-convicts and increases the overall crime rate in society.

Violence is not a blanket solution. Its a male illusion thats not thought out too far.

And there's nothing wrong with toking up every now and then.

[Sanctuary]

However, he was never incarcerated... he's free and he has hurt others and there isn't anything I can do about it. The statute of limitations means that since I lacked the fortitude as a child to defend myself and speak out -- it's much too late to do so as an adult. It's funny that they would put a statute of limitations on something like rape -- especially on rape of a child, as though the elapsed years makes it somehow 'better' or even 'forgivable.'

I'm sorry to hear what happened. That's really terrible. I knew someone who was in your situation too and it just makes you wanna go out and exact justice. Especially to prevent it from happening again. She didn't wanna press charges though cuz it's painful to bring up the past.

But regarding the statute of limitations: For something like child rape, it generally shouldn't apply since I think that would fall into the highest class of felonies. And if it does, I think you get around a period of 15 years or so to make a case. The years also don't start counting till you hit 18. But depending on the state it could be different. I also might have no idea what I'm talking about at all.

[misombra]

You're not addressing my point, which is that excessive punishment simply creates new ills for society to deal with and ends a cycle of poverty and violence.

The fact is that excessive violence does not work. Excessive violence leaves society worse off than it was before you started your new policy. Politicians frequently pass bullshit laws that are far too excessive in terms of punishment, and which inevitably increase crime because the degree of punishment disqualifies criminals from ever having gainful employment. The lack of rehabilitation forces recidivism amongst ex-convicts and increases the overall crime rate in society.

Violence is not a blanket solution. Its a male illusion thats not thought out too far.

And there's nothing wrong with toking up every now and then.

they're already living in poverty and violence. what gerbil proposes is a possible end to the mass rape of women. which in itself is part of the cycle of poverty and violence.

[MVPlaya]

Firstly, that cycle of poverty is exacerbated when you follow that type of criminal justice, and it has externalities on people who have never raped, but suffer as significant numbers of people are fully taken out of the work force, become incapable of seeking gainful employment, and are thrust into more, and even newer, crime to support themselves.

Secondly, there is no solution to end the rape of women. Its a solution to feel good about yourself. Its a solution to say you got tough on crime. But rape will keep happening. Rape will occur in families where people are afraid to speak out against their abusers, rape will happen in social groups where people fear risking all their relations by going public with accusations, it will happen at random at parties where victims won't be able to identify the perpetrator.

There are plenty of ways for a legal system to deal with criminals. When society over-punishes perpetrators, seeks to maximize revenge, then criminal justice is no longer a reflection of ethics but society's baser instincts. America is already one of the 'toughest' nations on earth when it comes to how it treats its criminals. It has among the lowest amount of support for rehabilitation among industrial nations, it has the harshest penalties, it has the highest incarceration rate of the world. America has 2.3 million serving prison penalties, one in every 42 Americans will be in prison in their lifetime, with as many as one in three African-Americans.


I fully support policies to help reduce rate and punish criminals, but what you guys are describing isn't punishment. Its some type of violent gluttony. This belief that you can just sit there and kill, murder, and beat your way to peace. Its just wrong. There are times when violence is the answer and there are times when it isn't. It simply seems that for some of you, the solution to any problem is "punish them heavier" as opposed to "find out what we can do to prevent crime."

[misombra]

if a man raped me, or my child, or other kind of loved one, and i killed them or castrated them, then it probably wouldn't happen again.

[Aeradalia]

I hate to sound like a broken record here... but isn't the point of punishment suppose to help society -- particularly the victim and potential victims?

Enough with the hatred and dwelling on it... just see to it that the person(s) are punished or disposed of and the pain can finally stop for the victim. To do anything else risks twisting the victim, their families, and their sympathizers -- not heal and not protect.

[Gribble]

There is nothing wrong with toking up.

Half the people in prison today never should have been there to begin with, the other half should never leave.

This is basically my idea: You catch a guy who robbed a gas station. He didn't hurt anyone. You lock him up for a few years in a minimum security prison. You offer him an education. You encourage him to do right. You help him find a job before releasing him.

You catch a guy who robbed a gas station and shot the clerk in cold blood or beat him him half to death with a hammer, you stick him in a cage and he never, ever leaves. That or you just outright kill him.

The idea isn't to stupidly punish everyone. It's to take the most violent, most despicable criminals and permanently remove them from society with the least expenditure while focusing on the misguided souls and giving them a shot at a productive life.

You keep talking about these criminals being incapable of getting jobs, of creating a cycle which leads to more crime. That's a very real problem in our society. However, in my theoretical society that won't happen. These people will be dead. They won't be released with felony charges that prevent them from getting jobs. They'll be gone.

Get tough on real crime. That's my stance.

[IndiReloaded]

My opinion on this subject tends toward Mish & MVP, but with more of a slant towards solution, something that hasn't really been brought up yet.

We used to send criminals like this to places like Australia.

Moon colony, anyone?

You think I'm joking, but I'm not. Hard labour on the moon, help construct something worthwhile. In the US, you could recycle "King Georges Hard Bargain": be sent to fight (or build) something for the good of the state, or be hanged. Obama's Hard Bargain. LOL.

Their choice, and a good one for very difficult cases, IMO. That's where I'd be sending those rapist animals.

[Gigabitch]

I can get behind any solution that removes the threat from common society. Lock 'em up forever, send 'em off to the moon, put 'em down like sick animals but don't put them on ****ing probation in my neighborhood where they will be called "pimps" by a bunch of pathetic, foolish overgrown boys who will buy them beers in exchange for a graphic retelling of the event.

I can't embrace the Pollyanna optimism about human potential that underlies the pacifist approach. Yes, some people are wonderful, but most people are fundamentally lazy and stupid and some people are just plain evil. I don't trust them.

Fair enough. I have a perfect solution for you then. It's called Sharia law. It means, you kill and you will be executed. You steal and your hands get chopped off. No one should dare to commit a crime ever right? Sounds good in theory doesn't it?

No, Mish. Sharia means that if you get gang raped you get stoned to death for bringing shame upon your family. It's more like the direction doppel was going.

[Mish]

The idea isn't to stupidly punish everyone. It's to take the most violent, most despicable criminals and permanently remove them from society with the least expenditure while focusing on the misguided souls and giving them a shot at a productive life.

Isn't this what happens already though? The criminals who commit the most heinous crimes in US (like murder in cold blood) already get a life sentence or executed in US and only the ones who can be rehabilitated (like the robbing you described) that get reduced sentences for good behavior.

There are a lot of gray areas in this though. What if a guy robbed a store and really didn't want to kill anyone, but the shop keeper put up a fight with aim to kill the robber (some people talk about the pleasure and satisfaction they would get from killing a robber even on this forum) and got killed in the process, what then? Should the robber be rehabilitated or executed?

[Gigabitch]

Isn't this what happens already though? The criminals who commit the most heinous crimes in US (like murder in cold blood) already get a life sentence or executed in US and only the ones who can be rehabilitated (like the robbing you described) that get reduced sentences for good behavior.

You'd like to think so. Unfortunately, despite plenty of evidence, pedophiles can't be rehabilitated. You can't fix that shit, and yet they're routinely let out of jail after very short sentences.

Here's one from my neck of the woods:

[url]http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20149460,00.html[/url]