21th century is asian century.. do you think so?

[Illusional]

did it really come from asia?? i always thought it was an asian thing, but i wasn't really sure of it's origins.

raverboy

[Mish]

Anyway, chariots would get a mark for invention. So would the crossbow. And so would the automobile. So, having said that, how would you describe the spread and usage of each of those inventions & their affect on cultural change?

According to your criteria for the wiring diagram it would be on their contributions to the development/advancement of other cultures:

Make a 'wiring diagram' of the various cultures and their contributions to the development/advancement of other cultures.

Which in effect would mean, the most ancient cultures would be the most influential because their influence lasted for thousands of years. You can take tens of thousands of modern invention and they would be worth only one or two of ancient inventions influence wise because those inventions influenced other cultures for thousands of years, while modern inventions only for decades (a century or two if you are lucky). You are going to have invention of the wheel more influential than automobile, genetic engineering, modern flight, space flight, all modern politics, internet and lots of others put together. In this case Egypt, Mesopotamia and Israel would be the top three most influential cultures of all time (This is according to your own metrics).

Indi, can you see how absurd this is what you want to do?

[Junket]

In this case Egypt, Mesopotamia and Israel would be the top three most influential cultures of all time (This is according to your own metrics).

Mish makes statements of cultural superiority!

PWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNED!

[Mish]

Mish makes statements of cultural superiority!

PWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNED!

Haha

As if! I said this is what we will end up with IF we start measuring cultural influence and comparing which one is more influential than the other.

Ofcoruse it's not true. Egypt, Mesopotamia and Israel are NOT top three most influential cultures of all time. No culture is.

[Junket]

Haha

As if! I said this is what we will end up with IF we start measuring cultural influence and comparing which one is more influential than the other.

Ofcoruse it's not true. Egypt, Mesopotamia and Israel are NOT top three most influential cultures of all time. No culture is.

Then which one is the least influential?

[Mish]

Then which one is the least influential?

Of all time?

We don't have enough facts from history so we will most likely never know.

You could speculate and say Neanderthal, but do you know for sure they haven't invented something that got passed on from generation to generation and influenced people for tens of thousands of years?

[Junket]

Of all time?

We don't have enough facts from history so we will most likely never know.

You could speculate and say Neanderthal, but do you know for sure they haven't invented something that got passed on from generation to generation and influenced people for tens of thousands of years?

I don't know, I was asking you.

Anyway, help me out in the mixed breeds thread, Indignant has engaged me in an elementary school argument and I'm drowning in a sea of perplexity.

[lastwish]

So why is it Asian century again?

Its the strength of the Chinese and Indian economy. And you know what they say "Money make the world go round".

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying--and I think this is what Indi's trying to say on a larger scale--that although it originated in China it wasn't until the Western world got hold of it that those weapons were refined and put to world-altering use.

"world-altering use"? The fact that western inventors had to use the ideas from previous inventions from China already shows that the initial invention was world-altering. Without the initial inventions, later inventors would not be able to arrive with the so called "refined" product. Not to say that western inventors were the ones who came up with all the "refined" inventions.

Well what's a World altering use? It was used in a lot of conqeusts by Muslims all over the known world of the time. Is that not World altering use?

Oh...the fact that westerners were the first ones to use gunpowder for colonial conquests already shows how "world-altering" it is. Not only they did managed to exploit and steal other people's raw resources, they also enslaved and killed a massive number of indigenous people through their use of force. The effect of the 19th century colonialization is still felt strongely today. African got hit the hardest and still remain a third world country because of this. Eurocentricism was a tool used at that time to justify the colonialization and exploitation. They brand the indigenous people as "savages" among many other things and considered themselves more "civilized" and generally more superior therefore they have the right to invade and take control of them and their resources. Deep cultural consequences such as racism and feelings of European superiority resulted from this.

Oh, stop it mish. I'm pretty sure you are well aware indi is not racist. It seems that rather than acting morally outraged, you might try a little harder to understand what she is trying to say.

Indi is trying to undervalue the inventions of non-European (while singling out innovations from Asia) when she does not even have 1/10th of the talent of these inventors. Why she is she doing is? I'll leave it up to others to make their own conclusions.

[vashti]

Lastwish - You are pretty much a newbie, and as such, I don't expect you to give indi the benefit of doubt. Mish is another story. he's been posting long enough to know indi better.

[IndiReloaded]

Lastwish, I'm guessing you are asian, yes? You are obviously getting upset & defensive about this discussion so I'm going to remove myself from it.

How do you know about my talent, or lack of? For all you know, I could already own some inventions. I might actually interact with scientists and business ppl from various cultures. Actually, just to save you the wondering: I have. What have YOU contributed or accomplished that makes you an expert?

So, perhaps you could stick to what you actually know instead of resorting to personal attacks? It only detracts from your points by seeming a simple emotional, instead of a rational, arguer.

I'm done. I don't think I can make further points w/o getting ppls backs up about this.

[IndiReloaded]

Actually, I'll make this simpler for you. Just generate the list for what you think are this chains Top 10 inventions/contributions to humanity. You must be specific, tho. Saying 'medicine' is too open-ended and can be used by any culture.

Then we can post a similar one for Greece ---> Rome ----> Europe (including England) ----> Americas.

Then we can compare & contrast.

This should be fun.

Oh, and why was this post ignored? I don't see there's a problem with it, except it will cause certain insecure folks bowels to turn to water, or something silly.

[Mish]

Oh, and why was this post ignored?

It wasn't ignored Indi, It's part of the same issue I already explained. There are no Top 10 inventions/contributions to humanity because they are incomparable and immeasurable.

But if you really want to dig into the territory with scarce facts, then they will most likely be top 10 ancient inventions/contributions that existed since even before European culture, because they caused influence that lasted the longest period of time (that's just an assumption)

[Mish]

Mish is another story. he's been posting long enough to know indi better.

Well maybe I went over board with some of the things I said (as I do sometimes) and I'm sorry. I was just disappointed in Indi. I thought a lot of these things were pretty obvious.

[lastwish]

Lastwish, I'm guessing you are asian, yes? You are obviously getting upset & defensive about this discussion so I'm going to remove myself from it.

How do you know about my talent, or lack of? For all you know, I could already own some inventions. I might actually interact with scientists and business ppl from various cultures. Actually, just to save you the wondering: I have. What have YOU contributed or accomplished that makes you an expert?

So, perhaps you could stick to what you actually know instead of resorting to personal attacks? It only detracts from your points by seeming a simple emotional, instead of a rational, arguer.

I'm done. I don't think I can make further points w/o getting ppls backs up about this.

That still does not give you the right to devalue other people's talents. I have not claimed to be an expert or judge of any civilizations. On the other hand, YOU have.

And expect people to be angry when you make false generalizations about other people's nationalities and civilizations based on your own preferences.

[IndiReloaded]

Ah, I think I see your problem.

Your last post is meaningless, LW. What do you mean that "I don't have the RIGHT to 'devalue' other ppls talents". Do you mean I don't have the right to JUDGE?

You are absolutely wrong about that. I am asked to *judge* all the time. Every time I mark a students work, or make a job evaluation, or decide to hire/fire someone, I make a judgement. You are incredibly naive if you think you won't be judged in life. I suspect, tho, you will be one of those PC ppl that will complain about it. To that I say: tough and grow up.

The fact that I place value on something (or aspects of some culture) over another doesn't DEVALUE the other. Only to someone as small minded as you. It just makes me discerning. It just means I think someone or something is BETTER. Are you denying that somethings are better than others in life? If you can agree with this on a personal level, then you can agree this can also occur at larger scales. Like I said before, I have NO problems admitting that men make better firemen & marathon runners from Africa generally kick our Western asses.

The idea that everyone has to be good at everything has got to be one of the most DESTRUCTIVE ideas that has arisen in recent times. I think that this idea that 'everyone can do it' is just stupid and ignores what is obvious: NOT everyone can do it, certainly not as well as others.

I will NEVER be a successful opera singer, no matter how hard I try. And that is okay, b/c I know what I AM good at & I choose to focus my energy there.

Anyway, just to be clear: yes, I do happen to think that Western civilization is the most significant culture to have arisen to date. I'm quite objective about this. I've read a lot of both Western & Asian history. I'm no historian, but I know quite a bit. In my opinion, Judeo-Christian based advancements since ancient greek times has done more for humanity than any other cultural contribution in the history of mankind. Sorry, but anyone who actually believe that other cultures have made the same volume & caliber of contribution since (or even before) those times is just spewing sour grapes. As for ancient inventions, past is past. Progress doesn't happen by sitting on laurels. Like I said earlier, one could say African influence is the major cultural contribution b/c it was there that man discovered fire.

Is anyone here going to seriously argue that Africa has been a major source of human cultural advancement in the last millennia? Of course, not, they can barely keep themselves watered and fed. Hard to make progress when you are starving.

Advancement requires LEISURE. And, which culture(s) have done the most for this in the history of mankind? Western culture.

Never before has humanity had the opportunity and leisure to explore ideas and advancements in the numbers that are possible in *Western* civilization. The fact is, LW & Mish, that most of China is still a 3rd world country. Until places like India, China and elsewhere get themselves under control and into the 21st century (how?--through democracy & capitalism--a WESTERN invention), they can't really say much to convince me otherwise.

Mish IS correct that the time of civilizations waxes & wanes. Perhaps China & India will solve their mass-poverty and human rights problems & be able to access the collective power of their masses, but until they do, the volume and magnitude of their ideas will not be comparable to what has been coming from the Western world. Sorry. As I say, the ONLY reason you are even able to hold this argument with me is directly b/c of Western ideas & influence.

So, to LastWish in particular, try to get over your insecurities about this and actually pay attention to WHY Western civilization was able to become as great as it is. There are some bright Chinese ppl who aren't afraid to ask these questions, and they are the ones who are moving things forward. In fact, their business methods, science and teaching methods are looking more Western (where do you go to school, LW?) & I think they are smart to be doing so.

So, to answer LA's original question of this thread: the 21st century MIGHT belong to asia. Just as the last several centuries saw the rise & dominance of Western influence. Certainly asia is adapting enough of Western ideas that they might be able to expand and build on it. But, until they get their significant human issues under control, only a small proportion of the population will be able to contribute and that will be a severe limitation to what countries like India and China will be able to accomplish.

If you'd like a book to read about this, here you go, but be warned, its not very PC:

[url]http://www.regnery.com/books/pigwestciv.html[/url]

[/rant]