circumcision

[anachronistic]

Wow, Tiay. The fact that they circumsize women just completely sickens me.

I will admit, that I was unaware at the time, but do recall that through the years my penis has lost some sensitivity.

[Gigabitch]

I will admit, that I was unaware at the time, but do recall that through the years my penis has lost some sensitivity

.

Dude, we all know very well that's from overuse ::snicker::.

[anachronistic]

Dude, we all know very well that's from overuse ::snicker::.

I hope


_____

[Junket]

Tiay, you act like babies end up traumatized from the pain.

Clearly, considering so much of the US population is circumsized it's not as big a deal as you're making it. The pain or the "mutilation" shouldn't even be a factor in this case, so exclude that from your argument, it's moot.

The only real argument, is whether men, or boys in this case, should be given the choice, and I'll say yes, they should.

But ****, I'm obviously not complaining about my dick.

Once again.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Tiay]

yes, but because it's so much I did highlight important bits to enable skimming.

looks like most of your info is coming from a biased source.

yes, in the process of googling for "circumcision, desensitisation, frenulum", etc, I did find sites and forum posts opposed to circumcision.
However, all such biased sites can do is cherry-pick the facts, not change them. So, they might accurately say that "together, the inner and outer foreskin account for over 50% of the penile shaft skin.", but chose not to publish a counterfact that devalidates this.

of all the solid facts I've posted, you haven't pointed out any counterfacts, nor do I think there are any to be found. it's the known facts that are biased against circumcision.

studies show that circumcision affects a man’s partner’s ability to orgasm from vaginal sex, can negatively alter a baby’s ability to bond with his mother, can interrupt and hamper breastfeeding and can make an infant experience pain more acutely in cases of actual necessary medical procedure (immunization)

"It has been established in numerous studies that circumcision causes changes in infant brain function and behavior."
footnote:
Marshall RE, Stratton WC, Moore JA, and Boxerman SB. Circumcision: effects upon newborn behaviour. A controlled blind observational study. Pediatr Res 1979;12:334

and also from here:

Howard CR, Howard FM, and Weitzman ML. Acetaminophen analgesia in neonatal circumcision: the effect on pain. Pediatrics 1994;93(4):641-6

I can find the same facts I've already posted, only footnoted with studies. Would that be more believable?

or how about the American Academy of Pediatrics? even in their relatively pro-circumcision document, they admit that data isn't sufficient to recommend routine circumcision.
[url]http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686[/url]

here's some more;

circumcision causes an "infant analogue of posttraumatic stress disorder."
footnote: Taddio, A., Koren G. et al. Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. Lancet, Vol. 349: 599-603 (March 1, 1997)
Rhinehart has clearly and indisputably documented neonatal male circumcision as a traumatic procedure.
footnote: Rhinehart J. Neonatal circumcision reconsidered. Transactional Analysis Journal 1999; 29(3):215-22

I could go on all day. these are real studies. here's the link for the study about the lasting effect of circumcision pain: [url]http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/[/url]

I realise babies cry a lot, and they pretty much look like that when they do. The fact that it is a significantly traumatic pain has been researched and shown. It is also a fact that some of them vomit, loose muscle tone, stop breathing, and go enter a semi-comatose state. I think this clearly indicates that at least a an alarming number of circumcisions are like this.

I have repeatedly shown that male circumcision is equivalent to female circumcision (types I and II) in the amount of sensitive tissue removed.

So, if a female circumcision would also decrease the chances of HIV by 60%, would you do it? Assuming, of course, you live in a country with a widespread epidemic, with no sanitation or health facilities, etc, where this 60% advantage actually makes a difference, which I have also shown that it does not make a difference if you live in a developed country.

And once again, they generally DO anesthesize babies when they are having circumcisions these days.

hm.. please find me a study/site/whatever that says what percentage of circumcised infants in the US receive anaesthetic.
I chose to ignore some of the stuff I found about circumcision pain that also documented that there are no completely effective and safe forms of anaesthetic for infant circumcision, and often they cause just as much pain. I just didn't paste that stuff in because it was way too long-winded to begin with.

[Tiay]

Wow, Tiay. The fact that they circumsize women just completely sickens me.

I will admit, that I was unaware at the time, but do recall that through the years my penis has lost some sensitivity.

well the fact that they circumcise men sickens me, especially after all that researching. It wasn't long ago that I would've said "well.. I don't know, I suppose it looks neater...." but then again, so does female circumcision.

Tiay, you act like babies end up traumatized from the pain.

well damnit, yes that's what i'm saying. I know that we're all damaged in one way or another by things that happened in our childhood- we get over them, or don't even remember them. That doesn't discount that circumcision is a medically unnecessary act that is clearly traumatic; and that *does* affect infant behaviour.

Clearly, considering so much of the US population is circumsized it's not as big a deal as you're making it.

so you're saying because it is the norm, it can't be that bad? It isn't the norm in most places, and most of the male world population are not cut.

in the list of countries where the majority are circumcised, the US sticks out like a sore thumb; Angola, Benin, Burkina Faso, Eritrea, Ghana, Kenya, Madagascar, Republic of the Congo, Philippines, and United States.

The pain or the "mutilation" shouldn't even be a factor in this case, so exclude that from your argument, it's moot.

The only real argument, is whether men, or boys in this case, should be given the choice, and I'll say yes, they should.

I agree, the pain thing isn't the most important aspect, I wouldn't dismiss it either though. Yes, the important bit is the choice- and the fact that the choice can be left up to him without any significant health risk.

[Tiay]

1: list of countries where the majority are circumcised. I did not cherry-pick this list, it is from wikipedia [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_worldwide[/url] I didn't include the list of countries where people are merely "believed" to be circumcised.


2: HIV/AIDS prevalence rate

3. Number of people living with HIV AIDS per capita.

4. Per capita total expenditure on health in international dollars

(stats from nationmaster.com)

1_____________2__________3_________4

Angola________3.9 %______19.79______92
Benin_________1.9 %_______8.648_____44
Burkina Faso___4.2 %______21.578_____38
Eritrea________2.7 %______12.534_____36
Ghana________ 3.1 %______15.618_____73
Kenya________ 6.7 %______34.574_____70
Madagascar____1.7 %_______7.529_____18
Rep. of Congo__4.9 %______24.309 ____ 14
Philippines_____0.1 %_______0.101____153
United States___0.6 % _____3.183____5,274

if you check back (page 2) you'll see the same stats for countries where the majority of men are uncut.
HIV/AIDS prevalence rates are higher in most of the countries with the majority circumcised, than in most of the countries where there not.
I'm not saying that circumcision causes HIV/AIDS rates to rise in the above countries, of course not. I'm merely establishing that the link is clearly between healthcare and development of the country, not circumcision status. I repeat, the decreased risk of HIV is only relevant for developing countries, I'd suppose especially so if there's an existing epidemic.

by the way, there is serious doubt over the Philippines low rate, which isn't particularly relevant here but is interesting to read: [url]http://www.aegis.com/news/atimes/2003/AT030402.html[/url]

[vashti]

Again, I am not gonna read all that Tiay, but I will tell you that the reason I am not providing any sources is because I know all this info is readily available to anyone who wishes to look for it, and I consider this forum more about having *conversations* rather an academic research website.

Really, if you aren't a fan of circumcision, just don't have one done on your child.

[anachronistic]

this is by far one of the most disturbing things i've read in my life:

[url]http://www.cirp.org/news/acis12-03-01/[/url]

[anachronistic]

I'm a little angry now, because I'm circumcised.

It didn't really phase me before.

[vashti]

Oh please lilwing. You are so suggestable. Don't imagine yours was the equivelent. It really wasn't.

[The Great OV!!!]

Fawking OW!

[Kiechi]

I'm not circumcised muahaha. All the HIV and AIDS for me!

[Tiay]

Again, I am not gonna read all that Tiay, but I will tell you that the reason I am not providing any sources is because I know all this info is readily available to anyone who wishes to look for it, and I consider this forum more about having *conversations* rather an academic research website.

so, you're saying the information is false, so you're not going to be bothered to find counterpoints to it? You're not going to research it or be open minded about any of the things I've suggested, even though many of them I have put a great deal of time and effort into building an argument for and grounding it well. May I remind you that you are the one who started this thread- which, btw, you did by posting an article about research. There is no way to have a "conversation" about this subject without bringing in facts from elsewhere.

There is one thing which i've ignored, which is that I assume your son is circumcised. And I want to make it clear that i'm not somehow attacking you for that- you did what you thought was best and what is the norm in your country, and I honestly can't blame anyone for that. But it doesn't mean you have to close your mind.

Really, if you aren't a fan of circumcision, just don't have one done on your child.

I believe in people minding their own business. Ie, if it doesn't affect you directly, don't make a big ruckus about it. but, in this case, if someone removed any other part of an infants body, they'd be prosecuted. the American Academy for Paediatrics says there isn't enough data to recommend routine circumcision. various studies say the same thing. I don't know how much more thoroughly I can prove to you that circumcision shouldn't not happen for any reason other than a last resort against HIV/AIDS, or as by choice when the person is old enough to give consent, or if a problem arises, which is rare.

---

I'm a little angry now, because I'm circumcised.

It didn't really phase me before.

honestly, I wouldn't worry about it because there's no way you can get the nerves back. Hopefully, you have some of your frenulum intact, and don't have any of these nasty mistakes:
[url]http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched5va.html[/url]

However, you can non-surgically, gradually stretch yourself a new foreskin. Remember seeing pictures of people with earlobes stretched out by weird piercings? I'm assuming that non-surgical foreskin restoration works on the same principle; constant pressure makes skin grow new cells naturally. You wont get the specialised nerve endings that are in the natural foreskin, but you will get realistic looking skin to cover your glans (when you're not erect), protecting it from rubbing on clothes, going swimming in cold water, etc. That allows the glans to regain the sensitivity it lost. the surface of the glans thickens and dries out in cut guys, whereas if you have something covering it, it is more like the inner folds of the vagina- soft and moist.
here's the The National Organization of Restoring Men website: [url]http://www.norm.org/[/url]

how to identify circumcision damage: [url]http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm[/url]
Anatomy and Functions of the Male Foreskin:[url]http://www.noharmm.org/anatomy.htm[/url]

[TDurden]

There is no kid on the planet that was circumcized and because of it had the rest of the their life ruined because the trauma was too much to handle. It's not that big of a deal.

Personally, I'm glad I was circumcized and I gotta say, I'd be pretty miffed if i wasn't.