Oh no! Are you sure?

[GrkScorp]

I'm just looking for four people's opinion on this..

- bluesummer
- ecojeanne
- lesa
- starbuck

Everyone else however.., can also feel free to write..
______________________________________________

So.., this is what I was thinking..

Guy and girl are going out.., they have a good time.., they both think the other is cute.., they're both a little nervous.., yet excited.., all the typical things you can expect from an ordinary date.., and then the bill comes..

Let's just say that on average it's $100.., which is only really $50 for the other person..

In a week.., that's $700.., $350 for the other person..

In a month.., that's $2800.., $1400 for the other person..

In a year.., that's only $36500.., and only $18250 for the other person..

Fine.., not a big deal.. really..

It's more symbolic than anything else.. and what was interesting is how the male opinion on this differs..

For Ben.., it's a blowjob contract..

For Tony.., it's something he feels he needs to do.., so he's a victim of social pressure..

For me.., I find Ben's mentality offensive.. That's like saying she would not be sexually interested in him if he wouldn't pay.. Since it's just a symbolic gesture.., showing how much you enjoyed the other person's company and date.., it's kind of stupid to be saying "every time".., "here.., I.., like always.., have enjoyed the date and your company more than you have enjoyed mine.., how lovely it is to be dating someone like you.., please.., let me.., get the bill for the millionth time.."

Then there's Carla.., her take on it is largely defensive.., "I pay for things "sometimes".., like I try and get him "little" gifts "here and there".., or "once in a while" I'll try and treat him to something nice"

Which still actually leaves the real question unanswered.. When the actual bill comes..

What is going through a woman's mind?

What does it mean for a woman?

Oh.., and news flash.., "no guy actually likes paying".. no matter how much he likes you.. So I've looked into the language of both people when the bill comes.. The guy either falls for the social conditioning and feels it's the right thing to do.., or he feels he's going to be getting something out of it later.. The girl just sits there.., either completely quiet.., feeling bad and guilty.., waiting for the guy to pay.., or she tries to relieve herself of that guilt of not paying.., by pretending to offer to pay.. "Oh no! Are you sure? I feel so bad.. Please.., let me.. really? Are you sure? Aww.. Thank you.. you're so sweet"..

So far.., I've simply narrowed it down to a bunch of invalid inferences on behalf of most women who feel:

- It shows them how much the guy cares for them
- It shows them how much the guy likes them
- It makes them feel good inside
- It's a nice feeling to have someone pay for you
- It makes them feel valuable and special

My favorite are things women say.., that make no sense.., that they know make no sense.., but they say them anyway.., simply in an effort to motivate guys to pay:

- It shows that he's a man
- That's what real men do
- It's the gentleman thing to do
- If he's not cheap.., he'll pay (the same does not apply to her)

That would be the same as a guy saying..

- Real women aren't afraid to suck a guy off on a first date
- When she takes it up the ass on a first date.., it shows that she's a woman
- She should bring her hot friend over for sex.., it's the ladylike thing to do
- If she's not just looking for a free dinner.., she'll offer to take it in the ass

Carla is an open book.., so it's not too hard to read her.., but at the end of the day.., that's just a sample size of 1

I really am curious for how it really feels.., everything that goes through your mind.., as the end of the date approaches.., as the bill makes contact with the table..

What does it mean to you?

What thoughts are going through your head?

What does it feel like afterwards (if you pay/if you both pay/if he pays)?

[ecojeanne]

i gotta run....but will definitely give my opinion in about 4 hours time

[GrkScorp]

i gotta run....but will definitely give my opinion in about 4 hours time

Don't worry.., take your time.., it's not urgent..

Just a thought that came up after watching that video last night..

[ecojeanne]

well the way i see it is.....i'm fully aware of the concept of reciprocation...... I apply the same principle to people. I never feel obligated simply because i will ALWAYS go 50/50.....if he insists then i insist another time.....infact sometimes it feels good to have someone owing you. I think men like to feel that they are owed something by women....it's a form of control. Now there are women who specifically take advantage and moan when the guy turns out to want more than just chit chat. I don't fall for it....and infact some women i know do it on purpose to get that extra drink for free or extra whatever.......i never accept a free drink from any strange men....am i mad????

NO i'm not.....i know how to be in charge of my own domain. if after introductions and we start having night of laughs and chat....then we do rounds...he buys one....i buy one....thats the fair a simple....less complicated way to deal with people


EDIT: then as you get into the relationship....it might get hazy at times....but 50/50 is the way to go as much as possible...relative to wages....can be difficult to keep track though

if family members and my older brothers friends that ive known for years (who are loaded and don't give a shite about the cost of drinks down the pub) then thats a different story....they're all millionaires and they expect me accept the drinks all night from them(and we are friends not in the least romantic....or have a possibility of romance).....and would look in disgust if i offered to pay because they know me. i pay one round of drinks for all at the end of the night and they love me for it. thats my understanding and it usually works well for me.

[GrkScorp]

I'm not talking about drinks.., I'm talking about something more along the lines of lunch.., dinner.., vacations.., etc..

For me.., my perception towards the whole thing has been.., "tained"..

First and foremost because of Ben.., who does as you say.., consider it a form of control.. Like the other person owes him something.. But I just sit by quietly and laugh.., because he forgets that most women are proud.., and will pride themselves on not owing anyone anything.. He can sit there and bang his head over it an call them b*tches and whatnot.., but I just call him an idiot..

Secondly.., because of Tony.., really sweet guy.., but he's like a carpet.. one with a "walk all over me" sign on him.. The first thing he does is ask.. "are you drinking anything?".. And out poors his money.. The thing with him though is he feels that's what he must do.. Sometimes he's ended up paying for not just the girl he's dating.., but her friends.., and unbeknowist to him.., her boyfriend..

Lastly.., because of my father.., He's been married for 25 years.., 15 of those years have been sexless.., at least between him and my mother.. His philosophy is as follows.., "when you have the experience.., you can spot out women like a sniper.., the first step is to screan them.., weed out the ones that are a waste of time.., (he's really good at this btw).., the second step is to select them.., pick the ones that you want to date.. You're not going to marry them.., you're just there to have fun and so are they.. But there's a problem.. She's not the kind of woman who's going to sit there and manipulate you.., but she also doesn't want to feel like a whore.. She wants to fcuk you.., she just doesn't want to admit it.. she doesn't want to show it.., she doesn't want to take responsibility for it.. If she takes responsibility for it.., if she initiates.., if it's her that gets the ball rolling.., then not only does she feel like a whore.., but she feels that she wants you more than you want her.., she doesn't get to feel sexy.., it makes her feel desperate.. So you have to realize that you have to offer her excuses.., you have to make it seem like you want her and are willing to do anything to get into her pants.. This allows her to tell herself that it's all your fault.., that whatever happens is because you wanted it.., because you were so pushy.., because you couldn't control yourself.., it was all your responsibility.., not hers.. Paying for a date.., or taking her somewhere where it's all on you.., doesn't really pressure her.., all it does is give her that excuse.. She doesn't so much feel obligated to have sex with you.., it's just that now she feels more comfortable having sex with you.., all the responsibility is on you.., her hands are clean.., she has that excuse that you paid.., she can tell herself a million things.., she's doing you a favor.., she's returning the favor.., she's paying you back.., she can even tell herself that she felt obligated.., whatever.. The point is.., she's more comfortable with doing what she wants to do.."

Now.., assuming we're past screaning and selection.. If I'm on a date.. especially a first date.. I don't want to pick up anyone's tab for a variety of reasons.. even if it's something small like $15.., especially if it's something small!

- The tradition originated hundereds of years ago.. Women didn't really work or have money.., society was moving past arranged marriages.., when it came time to date.. It was well-established who's responsibility it was to pay.. Now.., fast forward to today.. That's not the case.. Everyone who wants to work can work.., so the justification for that tradition falls apart..
- I'm not going to be your daddy.. I've met too many girls who simple want "someone to take care of them & rescue them".. Of course.., they'll never say that.., they won't even tell themselves that.., they might simply say something like.. "I don't want a guy that I have to take care of.., I want someone who is established and can take care of himself.. Someone who has their life together" (and make up for the fact that I don't have mine together)..
- Especially true for small amounts (under $20).., I'm not fcukn' coving it.. If it's a huge amount.., and I know I'm making more than her.., I'll pick it up.., but for small amounts.., it's not about the money.., it's clearly about the principle.. It's symbolic of how much we have both enjoyed the other's company.. Why would I send the message that she didn't enjoy my company at all? I would like to believe that we've enjoyed each other's company about roughly the same..
- I don't feel like paying for sex.. If that's what I would be looking for.., it would be cheaper to hire a hooker.., who would be hotter.., and do a much better job at it.. So I don't look at it as a "blowjob contract"..
- I don't feel like pressuring anyone into anything.. As a courtesy.., I want her to have the room to make her choice without any pressure.. I want to be sure that when she feels comfortable to take things to that level.., it's because that's what she wants to do.., not because she feels some lingering pressure or obligation in the back of her mind..

I know personally.., when the bill comes.., the first thing I look at is her.. If she puts on a "fake reach" act.., she's not getting a second date.. I'm very unforgiving when it comes to that.. If she offers to pay for the whole thing.., I insist on paying my half.., but let her know it's because I also value her company (so she doesn't think I'm doing it because I don't like her).. If she stops me short as I'm going to pay and says.., "I'm not that kind of girl".., and then pays her half.. she earns girlfriend points.. If she's not putting on a fake-reach.. I let her put her money down first.. I don't want to offend her or make her feel less independent..

I guess.., to refine my question.. what's going through your mind when the guy actually pays for you.., not drinks.., I mean on a regular date.. How do you feel?.. How do you feel when he doesn't offer to pay for the whole thing? What does it all mean to you? What symbolism or meaning does it carry for you?

[shh!]

I don't know anyone who spends $700 a week on dates.

Anyway, my husband likes to pay, and always has. He enjoys being generous. If we invite friends to dinner, he frequently pays. (Obviously, he is selective about who he calls friends.) Not everyone feels taken advantage of or entitled to something just because they open their wallet...

As a general rule, whomever does the inviting should pay. If you can't afford (or don't want to) then don't invite. It's that simple.

PS - don't you think your introduction was a little... odd? Most people just post a thread and ignore the answers they aren't interested in.

[kene]

Hi, great great great topic!

From my male point of view I think it's just a culture/tradition/modernity conflict.

The old school is the man pays. The old school is the man works, the woman stays home. That's perhaps where this all started if not from caveman days when guys did the hunting and brought back a slab of meat.

In a true, fair, non-traditional, non-discrimantory world it's simple:
Each person would pay for what they themselves bought.

I was once in a relationship where I always paid. I think my girl would orgasm when I would open my wallet at the end of the night and pay for a $200 dinner type thing.

You know what, she was cheap as ****. She only had expensive tastes if it was my money. Example, friday night, for the first time ever she actually decides to treat me to something, the movies. Before we go, I take her to a restaurant for a few drinks where she drinks her wine, I have my beers. I pay maybe $60 for about two hours of entertainment. We go to the movies, and she asks for two tickets, it comes to like $25 and I swear I see her want to grab her money back thinking it's too much!

Another time (months later) we were out and she bought like a slice of cake for her grandmother to go and she said she'd pay (we're talking less than $10 bucks). I let her pay, and she was PISSED, and said "You're not the man I thought you were." She even insisted that she should not pay a red cent if we were to buy a house, and even said a snarky thing like "I'm not going to let my husband put me in an economy car" -- in other words, she won't pay for a car, her husband will have to, and an economy car will not do.

Well, of course I couldn't handle this any more... and the relationship was over. She was model-esque hot, all my friends would give me "props" for being with her, my ****ing parents fell in love with her at first site, but I tell you, she just didn't have the heart... at all.

Since then, I buy the first few dates, then expect some equality. Not saying 50/50, but never to the point where I think my gal is more impressed with me opening my wallet than when I open my mouth. Also, the more a chick will contribute, the more she gets it back in other ways (other gifts life wines, perfumes etc).

The other thing is supply and demand. Men will **** anything. A hot chick who's at least a seven can go to a bar and pick up no problem. There's so much more comp among men trying to pick up women (obviously taht's why the hell they have ladies night and discounts for ladies to get into clubs than men), that the power in the relationship often is skewed and guys will pay because it gives them a one up. If they don't, some other guy might, and this changes how the chick views him.

Personally, I don't think it should be a contract at all.

So, as the bill makes it to the table what does it mean? And my thoughts?
-time to pay for our food and drink. My thought process: first 3 dates, I always grab first. After that, if my gal steps in and offers, I'll let her. If I never hear her offer, usually through some other way I'll hint it. If she still never wants to pay I DO get suspicious given my past experience!

What does it feel like after.... I think i'ts addressed above.

[ecojeanne]

ok over here we don't go on dates with people without having spent significant time in a casual setting first...ie the pub or some sort of social gathering...weddings parties...launches....anything....but enough time spent casually before an actual date is decided there has been a good long chat beforehand to know if a date is apropriate....thats why i mentioned the pub or drinks...its significant here...believe it or not i didn't go out on a 'date' (lunch..dinner on our own) with my ex for about 3 months after we were actually considered a couple....we got closer and closer through nights out with pals but spent the whole night out talking to each other more and more and then he started coming over to mine...cooking dinner and staying over....things are different here.....guys expect girls to pay 50/50 and so do we expect to pay....except for the few girls i mentioned

vacations....i've never gone on a vacation with a bf....but i would expect to go 50/50 depending on how long we were seeing each other

[ecojeanne]

btw ive never gone out to dinner/lunch with a guy i just met or barely know.....is that weird to you?....i'm aware it's always done in America....but over here we're a lot more casual about things

[ecojeanne]

ok i've thought about this more




just for a moment i'm going to imagine and try to answer what i think would happen if i was going on a lunch date with a new guy:

whats going through my mind is.......wtf? jk......

if he doesnt offer to pay....i would think it a bit weird and wonder if he's a loser of some sort....

i would automatically look at the bill to see how much if i could....i would offer to pay half truthfully.....

if he insists on paying...i would appreciate it but make damn sure i get lunch or something equivalent pricewise sometime soon....it might sound ott....but i don't like feeling obligated .....which i would.....but definitely not in the sexual sense....no way that wouldn't even cross my mind.....i would have thought men had more sense than to think this way


then again your dating system when compared to ours is the same principle......if a guy keeps paying for drinks we know what he wants.....thats why i always go 50/50 with the drinks.....i've seen man get angry with some women at the end of the night because the women have allowed the men to buy drinks and the women then just go home with their pals instead....pathetic of the men is what i'm thinking.......... but the possibility of annoying a man because he's bought me drinks all night is something that scares me and i avoid by my principles....i dunno if this has any bearing on the answer you were looking for.....

[starbuck]

Hmmmm, I'm not sure why the question was posed specifically to me. But here are my thoughts.

I am a fairly successful woman who makes a good salary. Hey, I'm not rich, but I do ok. Honestly I don't need him to pay and don't expect him to pay.

That being said, I think it would be nice as a show of consideration for the guy to at least offer to split the check with me. He wouldn't lose points for going dutch.

I think the most ideal situation is to find someone with a similar income bracket so that you can try and equally share the expenses. When one person starts paying more, it can cause friction. I once had a rich ex that doted on me gladly, and at first I protested alot, but finally I just decided to accept the fact that he liked to spend his money on me. It never became an expectation though.

P.S. I was also raised with my mother being the main breadwinner in the household so I don't have those old fashioned values about the man paying.

[GrkScorp]

btw ive never gone out to dinner/lunch with a guy i just met or barely know.....is that weird to you?....i'm aware it's always done in America....but over here we're a lot more casual about things

The irony of NYC is that there are more people.., but those people don't really talk to each other..

You usually meet at some public place.., get to know each other.. and then arrange for a date.. But you generally go from strangers to dating pretty fast..

Eco.. I'm still curious.., when you're just dating.., and the guy offers to pay.., how does it feel for you? I know you don't feel obligated.., and I know you don't expect it of him.., and usually go 50/50.., but when he does offer to pay.., how do you feel?

The closest I can take myself to emulating the feeling was when I went shopping with an ex of mine.., she picked out some shirts she really liked on me.., I was walking to the register to pay for them myself.., when all of a sudden she stopped me and said.. "no.., I want to get them for you".. They came out to like $300-something.., and I kept thinking to myself.., "wow.., that was really nice of her".. I kept thinking of how sweet that was that she offered to pay.., even though she didn't have to.. And then of course as a joke I told her.., "I feel obligated to sleep with you now".. We were already sleeping together.., so it was one of those moments where you can't stop laughing for a couple of minutes..

[ecojeanne]

Eco.. I'm still curious.., when you're just dating.., and the guy offers to pay.., how does it feel for you? I know you don't feel obligated.., and I know you don't expect it of him.., and usually go 50/50.., but when he does offer to pay.., how do you feel?..

ye of course it feels nice for a second before reality kicks in and i'm thinking....alright i can't have him having any kind of control over this situation...where i'm going to look bad (ive just realised i'm a control freak) anyway yes i feel obligated and dissapointed he wont let me go half....so i start planning how to pay him back immediately and as soon as i think of it i say it out loud to him....for him to know he's not getting away with it


how bad is that!



even though saying that my ex was delighted to have me pay for everything but it became tiresome and not very economical after a while

[Mish]

So.., this is what I was thinking..

Guy and girl are going out.., they have a good time.., they both think the other is cute.., they're both a little nervous.., yet excited.., all the typical things you can expect from an ordinary date.., and then the bill comes..

Let's just say that on average it's $100.., which is only really $50 for the other person..

In a week.., that's $700.., $350 for the other person..

In a month.., that's $2800.., $1400 for the other person..

In a year.., that's only $36500.., and only $18250 for the other person..

My opinion if you're interested

First off the calculation seems excessive. Although a single date in the beginning of a relationship can be $100+ it's not going to be a consistent daily phenomenon. Once the relationship goes into seeing each other daily routine noone can find the time to go out so consistently every single day. It becomes more of a stay home watch a movie / have home dinner type of thing . So the date spending you've mentioned needs to be scaled way down in my opinion in order to reflect reality.

Second, is it really the date spending that worries you? In my opinion the date spending is a very tiny issue compared to other important factors in the relationship like family, culture, understanding, relationship roles, views on raising children, parenting roles, if money is a concern then potential family income when there are children.

I personally choose to pay for the date, though often not successfully, my girl and past girls don't allow that. I do it because in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny issue that I don't want to think about.



Sorry if I sounded negative there somewhere

[CherriBlossomGirl]

My opinion if you're interested

First off the calculation seems excessive. Although a single date in the beginning of a relationship can be $100+ it's not going to be a consistent daily phenomenon. Once the relationship goes into seeing each other daily routine noone can find the time to go out so consistently every single day. It becomes more of a stay home watch a movie / have home dinner type of thing . So the date spending you've mentioned needs to be scaled way down in my opinion in order to reflect reality.

Second, is it really the date spending that worries you? In my opinion the date spending is a very tiny issue compared to other important factors in the relationship like family, culture, understanding, relationship roles, views on raising children, parenting roles, if money is a concern then potential family income when there are children.

I personally choose to pay for the date, though often not successfully, my girl and past girls don't allow that. I do it because in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny issue that I don't want to think about.



Sorry if I sounded negative there somewhere

I agree. Money is not what's important to me in the grand scheme of things. Honestly, it sounds like you're complicating it. I, like shh!, stick with the basic invite rule. If you invite me to dinner and a movie, I assume you're paying. If I invite you to join me on a vacation, I assume that I'll be footing the bill. When you first meet someone, how do you know what they're financial situation is? Do you really want to ask someone out and then ask them if they have the budget for it? If you're asking them out, you pay. Obviously you would like the pleasure of their company. Paying $50 for a nice dinner for the both of you is really not a big deal if you want to spend time with them. Once you are more serious (dating regularly, living together, married, etc.) it's much easier to broach the subject of who pays for what. I think going 50/50 is fair. But again, if I want to be around that person, I'll pay for any expenses, if I can afford it. If I can't or don't want to pay for a certain expense in full, then I simply don't invite them to that activity. I think of something else to do. It's ridiculous to sit there and *expect* someone to offer to pay for something they were invited to. If you don't have to money to take someone out to dinner, then don't invite them to do so.