Is it normal to feel jealous like I do?

[IndiReloaded]

What I find interesting about all this advice, which we often find paraphrased here from various 'dating gurus', is that it never seems to allow for the reality that not every man will be attractive to every woman. No matter how 'real' you are, or how 'in tune with your power', sometimes, there just won't be a 'fit' between two ppl.

As a biologist, I happen to believe this is due to incompatible genetics (there are boring theories for why this is, but I won't bother). So, CBs advice really is best, Arrow. Sometimes, you just gotta take it on the chin.

Or, like that old Nat King Cole song got right so long ago:

"if love ain't there... it ain't there"

[GrkScorp]

If you can, drop by my thread in the "Broken Hearts" section - it'll give you an idea of what I had to cope with last night and a small insight into my adversary in the battle for the girl I love.

Don't take this the wrong way or anything.., but unless you were in a relationship with her.., you didn't "love" her..

To avoid that feeling in the future.., you have to use a little bit more judgment on your part.. Sure.., you can be the guy who blindly goes and hits on everyone and hopes that he gets lucky or strikes base somewhere.. And that's fine.., because rejection shouldn't hurt.., because the reality is.., those people are nobody to you.. But to simply not waste your time.., or theirs.., "profile"..

You move forward with a sense of certainty.. Before you take things any more forward or allow yourself to invest emotionally.., you have to realize if she's just nervous.., just shy.., trying to seem composed.., pretending to be disinterested and waiting to see more on your part.., or just plain old not interested (which is natural.., even if you're the most perfect man in the world.., which nobody is.., you might not satisfy a variety of her personal preferences or genuine expectations).. You have to be able to see that! If you don't see that.., then you're going to keep pushing forward and investing emotionally on a dead cause..

So.., whatever happened on the "broken hearts" section.., happened because you got excited and ahead of yourself.. Which has happened to me and every other guy at some point too.. But you have to realize "why" it happens.., and not go forward or invest emotionally too soon in the future.. The time to get excited is during the relationship.., prior to that point.., you're "just dating"..

[Arrow]

I don't think anyone should be encouraging you at this point, Arrow. Your other thread about this girl creeped me out, and I think you could be potentially dangerous.

That was in a moment of outrage, but I really feel that bad sometimes. It's a will to get rid of it all, to try and change the world, and frustration for knowing deep down that I can't do it by myself. But I've got a lot to lose by doing those things I mentioned. Everybody feels like that at some point in life, but I've felt like that so many times already that I completely lost all locks when talking about this stuff and I admit that, if I could evade the bad points, I'd do what I can to get what I want.

I'm a frustrated good person, and I'm not being pretentious here when I claim I'm a good person. I try and try and try... At some point you have to be pissed off when you have the best of intentions but things just don't go your way because it seems there's a supernatural, egotistical force that wants a select few people to succeed and another select few to fail.

[vashti]

I don't think any supernatural force is setting you up to fail. I think your obsessiveness and refusal to accept no for an answer is alientaing.

[GrkScorp]

I'm a frustrated good person, and I'm not being pretentious here when I claim I'm a good person. I try and try and try... At some point you have to be pissed off when you have the best of intentions but things just don't go your way because it seems there's a supernatural, egotistical force that wants a select few people to succeed and another select few to fail.

Okay.., first of all.., listen to what vash is talking about..

Here's why..

Remember that "little" part about the pressures that apply to women as opposed to men.., how the emotional process is amplified for women?

When a guy is out.., (that would be you).., there's zero inhibition.. You can try to call him a whore.., a pervert.., a creep.., or any other name you can think of that you might consider pejorative and negative.., but it will bounce right off.. Men are simply unaffected when it comes to that.., it's very difficult to make contact and come in touch with the "self-image" part of their emotional process..

And on that note.., they generally don't feel emotion the same way to begin with.. They don't pick up on hints.., little subtleties.., details.., social dynamics.., all these things are unimportant to the male brain.. This usually gets guys in a lot of trouble.. They usually blurt out something horribly offensive or inappropriate.. "I can't believe you said that!".. But it's usually because they're careless and ignorant to how things "feel" like.. So when they finally "do" feel something.., any kind of emotion.., they just let it rip! They let it manifest.., build up.., and just fly.. There's no need to hold back and suppress it.., because it's barely a little spark that they try and get going into a modest flame..

So when a guy is out and feels something.., he just acts on it or says what's on his mind.. He does what he wants to do.., but more importantly.., the male doesn't find the need to exercise "self control".. In that respect.., male behavior.., verbal and non-verbal.., is what it is.. It doesn't go much deeper than its face value.. You can tell when a guy is thinking about something.., that's when he's doing something.. When he's just sitting there doing nothing.., it's not because he has anything on his mind.., in fact he has "nothing" on his mind.. We're quite in tune with our amazing superhuman ability to sit there for hours like rocks or plants thinking about absolutely "nothing"

But what a huge mistake it is on any guy's part to project that kind of mentality onto women.. (and vice verse for women to believe men think like they do).. Emotions aren't a little spark in women.., they're more like a forest fire she's trying to keep under control.. Ever had a girlfriend try and sell you how great she is and how much she does for you? And you sit there and think.., "but she doesn't fcukn' do anything!".. Well.., what she means is.., she's doing her best to keep herself under control.. To not let her insecurities or jealousy effect your relationship.., to try and control her thirst for attention and validation and find other avenues that feed her self esteem.., to try and keep cool and relaxed right before and during her period.. So to you it might seem like she's not doing sh*t.., but since she really does feel all these things going on inside of her.., she's actually doing a lot..

And with that thought in mind.., combined with the social pressures and inhibition that applies to women.., she gets accustomed to exercising a high degree of "self control".. If she shows her true self.., vulnerabilities and weaknesses to other girls in school.., they might just rip her apart or use them against her.. But as far as female-to-male interactions go.., if you think "you" emotionally invest and feel hurt.., just imagine how catastrophic it is for a woman.. If she lets her emotions for someone just run wild.., chances are good that.., in time.., she'll get hurt.. So when she's dealing with men.., she might really like them.., but she'll exercise a high degree of self control.. She won't allow her emotions to run wild.. It's for this reason women want to take things slow and take time.. She knows that if she gets blitzkrieged with feelings of attraction.., connection.., love.., sexual lust.., comfort.., and genuine appreciation.., she won't be able to control herself.., she might do something stupid she might regret later.., and because she knows she can't trust herself.., she needs to control herself..

You can see how this creates HUGE misunderstandings between the two sexes.. Back during my undergrad when I was studying economics.., I was fascinated with the "friction" this created in the dating market.. Eventually the market clears.., but even when two people were fairly priced (expectations.., preferences.., and actual values matched).., there was so much that could go wrong.., and it was usually an issue with communication.. The girl is trying to figure out what the guy is thinking.., what he's "really thinking".., what all his actions "really mean".., because she thinks guys think like she does.. The guy is looking at what she said and did.., and based on that.., trying to see if she's interested in him or not.., because he thinks girls think like he does..

Some reasons she would interact with you:

- To boost her self esteem and feel good about herself
- To have you do stuff for her and get her things (uncommon.., don't be paranoid)
- Just friendly.., with the possibility of something more..

Just think about that.. If she's entertaining the possibility of something more.., is it likely that she would be all flirty and touchy-feely with you? The tragedy with men is.., that their naivete makes them socially clueless.. When a girl is just looking to feel good about herself or trying to see what he'll do for her and once again.., just for a self esteem boost.., she'll be overly flirty and touchy and giddy.., trying to be sexy and suggestive.. When a girl is trying to control herself.., well.., she's trying to not let what's on her mind show! She's trying to cover it up and hide it well.. If you pay close enough attention.., you can tell when a woman is feeling nervous and exercising self control..

In your case.., just get over her now.., and move on.. Oh! And watch the movie!

When you go for the hail marry and come on too strong.., she rightfully has to feel cautious and guarded.., if for no other reason that to emotionally protect herself.. If you start falling under the impression that telegraphing your interest to her is being "honest" and "respectful" towards her.., you're creeping the sh*t right out of her.., and she's going to run as far away as possible.. Is she being "honest" with you? I'm not saying she's a bad person or has the wrong intentions like to deceive or manipulate you.., but is she being genuine? Is she allowing whatever is on her mind or what she's feeling to just show? Or is she technically being "dishonest" and trying to cover it up and hide it well? Again.., I don't mean to use the word "dishonest" in a negative way.., but just to demonstrate that the face value information you're getting from her external behavior (verbal & non-verbal).., anything she's consciously in control of.., isn't truthful.. It might seem truthful.., but it's not.. To the naked eye.., an interested woman who is a bit nervous.., seems disinterested.. (If she's overly flirty/touchy/sexually suggestive/etc.., then she's not feeling the need to control herself.., why not? Give that some thought)..

So for next time.., just learn to exercise a bit of self control on your own.. The insensitive male doesn't have strong feelings like that.., so when she sees stuff like that.., she thinks it's fake on your part.. So even though you feel that way.., just try and keep it to yourself.. I know it might feel like it's being dishonest.., and note truthful.., and this isn't the honest and respectful thing to do.. But think of it this way.., it's not like you're playing hard to get or anything like that.. You're doing it for her.. With consideration for her need to be in control of her emotional self.. In order for her to do that.., you have to control yourself and not make her feel like you're pushing to fast.. Or else at the very best.., she'll set up arbitrary boundaries.., and at the very worst.., she'll feel like you're creepy/clingy/needy/pushy.., lose interest.., and try to distance herself..

If you're interested.., read up on "hard sell" vs. "soft sell"..

When you're a salesman.., your time is valuable.. You don't want to waste your time with people who aren't interested in buying.. So spotting those people out is the first thing you do.. It's pointless for me to hard sell or soft sell to someone who just isn't interested in what I have to sell.. But you can actually lose a sale if you try to do a high pressure hard sell.., as opposed to a low-to-zero pressure soft sell.. In the market for sex.., you're doing a hard sell.. In the dating market.., you're doing a soft sell..

[Arrow]

Okay.., first of all.., listen to what vash is talking about..

Here's why..

Basically what I could infer was that she's not interested in the other guy because she's not holding herself much with him. But she might be afraid of me because of something (I don't know what, in fact all the people I've talked to, including my counsellor, don't) that I've done that exposed my feelings.

Actually I've always hid my feelings - I've been told I would embarrass myself if I didn't. The problem is playing the role of the good guy too much, which I think is the point you tried to show me, because the good guy leaves no room for mystery, for making him wanted. He's being blunt and the woman is afraid of giving in and viewing this as a big mistake afterwards.

I'd like not to see this as a lost cause. She ended a relationship two months ago, she's currently enjoying herself with her girl friends... I'm respecting that. I myself am trying to do the same and, if there's something I achieved this weekend, was gaining friends and not being afraid of doing things in public. The game goes on as, officially, we're friends, and it can always change down the road. The problem lies in another guy entering the game and attracting her attention, making me potentially lose the game. This is what made me desperate. If she currently has barriers, I can work in the sense that in the future she lowers them. I'm just afraid I take long enough that it might be too late. But, by then, I may have known another girl and have had more success with the advice I've been receiving.

Oh and, just for the sake of it, today I talked with a (girl) friend of mine and she was surprised I liked that girl... She thought the girl was ugly, nerdy and quirky and the other guy wouldn't be interested in her...

I'm sorry for sounding crazy. I'm so concentrated on making things work that this stuff passes as obsession with a person. In fact it's more of an obsession with getting things right for once.

GrkScorp, do you watch "Lost"? If so, have you analysed the triangle Jack-Kate-Sawyer? I'd love to hear your input on that.

[GrkScorp]

I'm sorry for sounding crazy. I'm so concentrated on making things work that this stuff passes as obsession with a person. In fact it's more of an obsession with getting things right for once.

Yeah.., don't take this the wrong way.., but it's so much easier to just meet new women.., than it is to try and make things work between someone you already know.. Not working by the second day? Not feeling it between the two of you? Next.. Seriously.. I'm not even kidding..

Think about a firm looking for new hires.. This firm is HOT! So new hires want to work there.. Who do you get? People who want the prestige and salary.. That's all their job is worth to them anyway.., prestige and salary.. The name it'll add to their resume and digits it'll add to their account.. (In case it wasn't fairly obvious.., that was a metaphor for sex appeal and money).. People who genuinely enjoy what they do.., might come your way.., but there are other firms that are just as hot.., if not hotter.. Ultimately.., prestige and salary are not the only things that influence job satisfaction.., and employee loyalty.. The problem with you though.., (not "you").., is that as this hot firm.., you're too proud to solicit for hires.. Fcuk them.., they should have to beg you to take them!

That has the effect of making you a sitting duck.. Imagine there's an employee out there that you really like.., your pride and need to save face won't allow you to get him.. You're just stuck with whatever comes your way..

You might not be comfortable with going around and talking to new people yet.. That's fine.. Always a rough shell to break out of at first.. But as you start getting better at it.., you'll start to see the advantages to it.. You can fcukn' talk to anyone you want.. To you.., it's just a matter of walking across the room.., opening.., keeping the conversation going.., putting the group at ease.., working the group.., connecting with her.., building her up.., and cutting it short with a close..

Do realize.., the mentality of most girls.., not women.., girls.., is.. "fcuk him! I'm not going to initiate.., he's going to have to chase me! He's going to have to come over and talk to me.., and show interest in me.., and give me attention.. I want to feel like he wants me.. If he doesn't talk to me first.., oh well.., his loss".. Now.., if you BOTH have that kind of ego and pride.., it's fine.. It's understandable.. Low self esteem & insecurity are the proud parents of that kind of mentality.. But that just means that nothing will ever start between the two of you.., you'll both sit there and pretend to not notice each other.., waiting for the other person to come over and talk to you first.., somehow initiate.., and it'll eventually be time to leave..

You're not a girl.., if a girl you aren't attracted to approaches you.., she doesn't count.. you can't meet women you aren't interested in and feel good about yourself.. You can't meet women who you don't find attractive and feel good about yourself.. And you can't even pretend or tell yourself that women were giving you looks and were interested in you.., because you know that's what people do.., they look.., not just at you.., but at everyone.. It would be pretty vain of you to think that they were looking at "you".., just you.., and because they like you.. If she doesn't meet a great guy that night she looks forward to seeing again.., she'll at least feel flattered some other guys talked to her.., even if she didn't find them attractive.., she'll still count them.., if no other guys came and talked to her.., she'll tell herself that guys were looking at her and checking her out.., she might even flatter herself by "complaining" to her friends about the "creepy guys giving her looks or checking her out".., so she can clearly communicate to them that guys were looking at her and imply that she's attractive.. (it's a form of self-flattery).. And even if she doesn't tell herself that.., she can always convince herself that every single guy that saw her that night was shy.., and if not shy naturally.., she's such a stunning g-ddess that every man must have been intimidated by her.., because there's clearly no other explanation to account for her consistent lack of male attention.. (you simply can't feed yourself the same bullsh*t)

Sure.., you can be a girl.., you can sit there.., and wait for someone who waits for you to approach her.., to approach you.. Or.., you can start approaching and meeting new people.. People love meeting new people.. Women are so deprived of actual male attention it's not even funny.. They have to pretend they get approached by guys all the time.., they tell themselves that to maintain good self esteem.., and they tell guys that so they don't look desperate or feel like losers.. During your approach.., most of the resistance you'll meet is so that she doesn't feel desperate or like a dating loser.. It makes no difference to you.., but it matters to her.. So just by virtue of approaching.., you're making her day.. A lot of girls will just cut it short and leave it at that.. Why ruin a good thing? Why risk him not calling and feeling bad about yourself when you could just take all his attention and validation for the few moments you chit-chat and feel good about yourself? That's not to say you can't still be fun.. But that is to say.., that your approach is more than welcome.., it's longed for! If she's just out to have fun.., then she'll be talking to and meeting new people.. If she's waiting for someone to walk up and talk to her.., she'll pretend to be having fun and not at all interested in talking to anybody.. (it doesn't make her feel desperate or look desperate in front of other women)..

You'll start to notice what a wonderful position this places you in.. You have the power to pick and choose who you do the favor of approaching.. It's very flattering for a woman to get approached by a guy.., in front of other women.. It's like "ha! look b*tch! he walked up to me! not you!" or "our group is more attractive and better looking than yours!".. It's even more flattering to get approached by the guy who everyone around her has taken notice of.., and it most certainly doesn't hurt to be that guy..

When you break into the habit.., and as it starts to feel more and more natural to you.., now.., you'll start to see how it's just so much easier to meet someone new.., than it is to invest any more time and energy into something shaky..

Psst.. "LET IT GO"..

GrkScorp, do you watch "Lost"? If so, have you analysed the triangle Jack-Kate-Sawyer? I'd love to hear your input on that.

I don't even watch if I have an erection in the morning.., why would I watch "Lost"?

The only TV I watch is hardcore porn and the discovery channel.. I usually keep the porn running on in the background for when people are coming over.., much like in American Psycho.. Then when everyone leaves.., I'll switch it over to the Discovery Channel..

[Only-virgins]

Oh come on this is the biggest pile I've heard all week long. Just because your friend knows how to take advantage of stupid, slutty women does not make him any wise man... nor does it mean that all women are whores. I've met quite a few women who weren't whores at all; they had a head on their shoulders, they weren't primal like animals or anything.

Nah, he nailed it. Women are whores. They either ****ed half the neighborhood and you know it..or they ****ed half the neighborhood and you don't know it...which is the case with your girl having her "head on her shoulders". I met many down to earth girls who are very intelligent....but are whores.

It would be nice to win WOMEN but I want to win THAT WOMAN...

I like the way that is put. We win women, because we play a game and in games you win things. Women are the prize. Women are things to enjoy...like a trophy

[IndiReloaded]

OMG. This entire thread has become a psychoanalysts dream. We've got neuroses connecting with egomania and sociopathy. Laced with a pinch of misogyny and a huge amount of sexual frustration. Its quite remarkable.

[starbuck]

Yeah, I get a kick out of it when men say all women are whores. It not only sounds ridiculously misogynistic, but smacks of latent homosexuality. At least that's what Freud would have said if I remember my psych courses correctly.

[vashti]

I suppose OV must think his own mother is a whore.

[starbuck]

Why do you people continue to waste your time posting in this thread when the OP left? See - [url]http://www.loveforum.net/off-topic-discussion/25116-leaving.html[/url]

Um, because some of us aren't addressing the OP anymore?

EDIT: Oh and by the way...he came back