Did Women's Rights Destroy Traditional Marriage?

[IndiReloaded]

I think Vashti's point was that given the basic issues surrounding patriarchy, it is unfortunate that the generally biggest obstacle to a woman succeeding is another woman. There are a lot of women who are out to do nothing more than undercut any woman doing better than they are. Which isn't hugely prevalent in behavior by men towards other men.

And I strongly disagree. I spend more of my time in my job counselling these women to think about things and their future far more often, and better, than many men would. Its not another woman holding these gals back, its themselves and the choices they make and their commitment to them.

That said this emotional babysitting is a big drain on the company's resources, actually, considering my time could be spent doing other things. But it IS a part of managing people, at least women (I don't have to do this for guys) so therefore an acceptable part of how things work.

[Lite]

And I strongly disagree. I spend more of my time in my job counselling these women to think about things and their future far more often, and better, than many men would. Its not another woman holding these gals back, its themselves and the choices they make and their commitment to them.

That said this emotional babysitting is a big drain on the company's resources, actually, considering my time could be spent doing other things. But it IS a part of managing people, at least women (I don't have to do this for guys) so therefore an acceptable part of how things work.

Right, but what you're doing is slowly helping to ween women off of such behaviors that are not helpful to themselves or their careers. It's kind of like the discussion the wife and I had about feminist groups being upset that more women weren't included in Obama's cabinet. The honest truth is that compared to men, there just aren't that many women with the same amount of experience and senority available to choose from. It isn't that women aren't capable, it's just that you're probably another 10-15 years from having the current crop of highly educated and successful women having the necessary background to fill cabinet positions on a more equal footing.

While there may be a qualified woman available for the job, her opinions, views, and objectives may not be in-line with that of the president-elect. Therefore, they are not compatible with the post at this time.

[bluesummer]

I think Vashti's point was that given the basic issues surrounding patriarchy, it is unfortunate that the generally biggest obstacle to a woman succeeding is another woman. There are a lot of women who are out to do nothing more than undercut any woman doing better than they are. Which isn't hugely prevalent in behavior by men towards other men.

I still don't get how this 'point' had any relevance to what I said.

[IndiReloaded]

I agree with this Lite. But not the comment that 'other women hold other women back'. At least, that hasn't been my experience. Are there women who might be threatened by my ability to achieve? Maybe, but I don't tend to interact with them except how I mentioned in the workplace.

Since you brought up Obama, that sounds an awful lot like the folk who yell 'help, help, I'm being repressed', but have an incredibly capable African American president coming into office. The epitome of 'Yes, YOU can too'. So its what Blue said: there are a lot of women who do have their shit together and should be admired.

Oh, and to be clear: I don't have a problem with women who choose to stay at home, especially if they have the financial resources to do so. I did it for a while. But when I met those women and their children, home, etc. they were often worse off than what I could hire someone to do, so you gotta wonder about their claim to being a 'professional' homemaker, you know?

Gribble makes an excellent (if obvious) point about women being stuck being dependent on their asshole husbands. Sure, there are those and we should (and do) help them. But are they the majority? What about the ones who actually have it really good and they just bitch and moan about how bad they have it? Know anyone like that? I bet you do.

We had this argument in the thread about that guy who had a GF who was a student but was spending her days at her family's house socializing. All he wanted was a clean house and a hot supper when he got home. I sympathize greatly with guys like that. They are getting screwed, the same as a deadbeat guy who drinks his wifes hard earned money away. The men complain, often rightly, and the women get mad and get divorced b/c 'they don't have to put up with all that'. Its their RIGHT to watch Oprah, bring in a dribble of money from their little parttime job or socialize with friends/family during the day and still expect the million dollar spouse to take out the garbage when he gets home.

WTF?

So what happens is, guys now look for professional wives to match their own achievements so they don't have to deal with all this crap. Or at least hope to have less of it. Or they go and marry foreign wives who have a proper work ethic, whether its inside the home or outside.

And for this post, now I'll get the 'gee, Indi, I'm sooo surprised at you', responses. But not actually denying anything b/c I'm stating the problem for what it actually is. If I were a guy, I wouldn't want to get married to most women out there either, so I don't blame the guys like OV, Gribble and even Fras for their attitudes. Its justified. And it didn't arise in a vacuum.

This, just to be clear, was my original point:

I have no issue with ppl wanting to work and make contributions outside the home. I just think that doing so involves certain choices that folks are often not realistic about.

There are an awful lot of entitled, self-centred women with Princess complex out there who honestly believe that merely bringing children into the world is the equivalent of being a successful scientist, or physician or otherwise making a significant contribution to society. If it was, then places like Africa and India would be our equals and then some.

It is these unrealistic expectations that is destroying marriages. Being married to an abusive asshole is only a small fraction of the divorces that are happening out there. Mostly, it is due to dissatified women who don't often know what the hell they really want. The majority of women initiate divorces, I'm sure Carl has the stats on this.

[Lite]

There are an awful lot of entitled, self-centred women with Princess complex out there who honestly believe that merely bringing children into the world is the equivalent of being a successful scientist, or physician or otherwise making a significant contribution to society. If it was, then places like Africa and India would be our equals and then some.

You must have known my ex-wife. LOL

I think the problem is that some feminists get so wrapped up in the wrongs of the patriarchy that they fail to understand that not every woman wants to be a scientist or doctor or CEO. That some women, like some men, want to stay at home and raise a family.

All of which are valid life choices if made for the correct reason by the individual who must live that life.

[vashti]

I hate listening to women who work outside the home talk about how much more important they are than women who stay home a few years and raise their children - like these women have sacrificed their lives or not lived up to their potential, or some such nonsense. The number of women who are so "important" that the world would suffer over their loss is miniscule. Children (especially young ones) NEED their moms. I think it is outrageously selfish to have babies only to shuffle them off to daycare so their mommies can feel important (assuming the income isn't a necessity).

Are there lazy moms out there? Of course. Probably in the same proportions as there are lazy working-people.

[ecojeanne]

imo staying at home raising the kids and looking after the house is the hardest job of all. i don't envy it but i do admire women who sacrifice their wants and freedom for the sake of the family and same goes for stay at home fathers. it is to be admired imo.

[LadieNisha4u2nv]

I think a stay at home or single father is alot more admirable than a stay at home mom. It's pretty rare to see, at least around here.

[IndiReloaded]

Either is great provided they do a good job. Commitment, is what I'm talking about.

[LadieNisha4u2nv]

Of course they are both great but I just think a father is alot more admirable in this day and age because not much men nowadays live up to their responsibilities. And for them to be a single father at that to me shows alot of maturity.

[IndiReloaded]

Yep. A friend lost his spouse several years back. He had a 2 year old at the time. Tragic. But he did a kickass job of dealing and is now happily remarried. Sometimes, the steadfast do get rewarded.

[boobaa]

What the hell is womans rights?

Are we talking the right to vote here, or what the hell?

Or are we talking about equality in general?

[Lite]

What the hell is womans rights?

Are we talking the right to vote here, or what the hell?

Or are we talking about equality in general?

Equality in coverage for health care, prescriptions, pay, treatment in the workplace, etc.

There are a lot of areas in which women are still not equal to men in the eyes of "society".

[DoesntMatter]

I'm sure as hell glad my mom quit her job when she had my older sister so she could stay at home and raise us

If she didn't, I would be one of those warped kids raised in a daycare center. No thank you

[ecojeanne]

^^ you're not warped?!
























j/k lol