Did Women's Rights Destroy Traditional Marriage?

[Junket]

I was just thinking about this the other day.

If women weren't as independent as they are, would divorce rates drop?

I think so.

Personally I don't care for marriage in the first place, but I've heard many people complain that people don't take marriage as seriously as they used to, and while that may be true, I believe it is simply the by product of a progressing society.

In a society where everyone is always looking for the next best thing, and cities are denser than ever, is it really a surprise?

I think romantic love is such a huge deal because there aren't a lot of other factors deemed necessary for marriage anymore. Why not marry someone because they're good in bed?

Why not marry someone because they were the first person to give you the attention you've craved for so long?

Why not marry someone because they can buy you a lot of things and take you places you've never been?

Worst case scenario, you can divorce and either take half of what is their's, or just start back where you left off.

[ecojeanne]

i think womens rights are important, however i do think that (and i'm sure you'll say here we go!) i believe that government was looking for more ways to tax more people, crazy maybe, but 50% of the population were at home minding the kids before womens lib started full swing. both parents are working now to make ends meet to pay the mortgages etc, back years ago the mans wage was able to support, how come now it's impossible for min wage people?

i'm glad the women fought for their rights, if they hadn't i'd be considered a second class citizen with no rights to an opinion and would HAVE to get married. thank goodness i don't.

[IndiReloaded]

The concept has been trashed by the media, Fras. Like a lot of things in our disposable society.

Ask anyone here, or even your friends, what marriage IS and you'll hear a bunch of sop about what they've been programmed to believe, but its a rare person who has actually thought about this issue.

Being successfully married is really like doing an advanced degree in human studies and diplomacy, except your 'graduation' now depends on the goodwill of a second person, not just your own hard work and hutzpah. That dependence on another person is the complete antithesis of a lot of Western/American ideas about success, so its not valued. Hence the problems. Marriage is NOT something one can 'solve' alone. It required a combined effort.

Hope this makes sense.

[Mish]

I think one of the biggest problems in the western societies that work against marriage is lack of structural and ingrained support mechanisms dedicated towards keeping two people together. The emphasis seems more on individual freedom > Interdependence and synergy. There are no formal support structures (that I'm aware of) that focus on encouraging and guiding two individuals towards effective and synergistic problem resolution instead of playing a blame game and working out who is right and who is wrong. Perhaps our next point of progress will be the foundation of these?

It can be said that in the past people took marriage more seriously because there was little choice for them otherwise. Now choices are abundant so people are less hesitant about putting in more work, but perhaps these choices need to be scaled back and offered only after a certain amount of progress towards mandatory synergistic problem resolution had been made?

[vashti]

To answer your original question "Did Women's Rights Destroy Traditional Marriage?", I'd say probably so. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. Women didn't use to have many choices, and now they do. Too bad so many people (male and female) exercise this privilege so irresponsibly.

[misombra]

well, i think absent husbands contributed to it too. it was a combined effort.

i also think a lot of men want to have a traditional marriage but few can afford it.

[IndiReloaded]

Yea Fras, lol. There are several questions in your post. Tho they are connected.

[IndiReloaded]

i also think a lot of men want to have a traditional marriage but few can afford it.

This is a really good point, I think. The guys who CAN afford it, are often looking for their "equal" in intellect, career, success. But the type of woman who would be all these things is not going to be happy being a stay at home wife. Why would she be?

[Mish]

I think there is also a certain amount of role confusion in the western societies (an unfortunate after affect of feminism I suppose). It's not as easy to work out the roles as it was before. Who will cook, clean, look after the house, look after the children, provide regular revenue and resources? What value should be attributed to each and who should be responsible maintaining these? These are difficult extra questions that now need to be worked out in a relationship. Traditionally these were worked out automatically.

[vashti]

This is a really good point, I think. The guys who CAN afford it, are often looking for their "equal" in intellect, career, success. But the type of woman who would be all these things is not going to be happy being a stay at home wife. Why would she be?

I disagree. I know lots of professional women who wished they could have stayed home with their kids, at least while they were little. In fact, many of the women who were involved with my kids when they were little were professionals. Of course, they mostly returned to work once kindergarten came around.

[misombra]

i was watching this documentary about thai bride services. their sales pitch was "less independent thai women never have a headache for western men" or something to that effect.

their marriages were over in a matter of days most of them.

[IndiReloaded]

Its not that hard. If that's what you want, then Miso's point (I think) is that guys shouldn't expect this and a gal with her doctorate or a professional degree. Or they had better be willing to cook, clean, raise kids, etc. as much as their wives (or more is she's making the $$$).

[Junket]

Traditionally these were worked out automatically.

Exactly.

I'm not particularly for or against marriage, it's just that I think it's futile to expect couples to have a long lasting marriage when both individuals are capable of living independent. Not to mention everything else that goes with modern society.

[Mish]

it's just that I think it's futile to expect couples to have a long lasting marriage when both individuals are capable of living independent.

Independence is not the final stage of growth though. At the moment I'm finding it hopeful that emphasis on effective interdependence as the next stage after independence is starting to appear in the progressive literature (we had to do studies on it at uni last two years). Effective interdependence is a great force that harnesses capabilities of individuals and lets them enjoy the benefits that neither could enjoy individually. Hopefully this will be our next stage of evolution and answer to a lot of current problems that we are facing.

[IndiReloaded]

I disagree. I know lots of professional women who wished they could have stayed home with their kids, at least while they were little. In fact, many of the women who were involved with my kids when they were little were professionals. Of course, they mostly returned to work once kindergarten came around.

Sorry Vash, but this is my experience, as a scientist and a professional myself. I'm around these women all the time. My physician (and probably yours) talk about this. My friends are like this. They complain about their lot, but that's just the standard complaining that ppl do. Fact is, as you say: they go back to work. And most career women do. How many do you know that *happily* gave up a career for home? And, of those women who wished this, how many REALLY needed to work, for financial reasons? Were they supporting their husbands? I doubt it, b/c if they were then the childcare would not be an issue.

To be clear, when I say 'really needed to work' I mean, to put food and a roof over their heads. Not to pay for million dollar homes and expensive lifestyle.

I know a woman who actually separated from her young son & husband so she could take a faculty position in another state. No jobs for her here. This is just one example. I worked an 80 hour a week job and juggled family and work for many years. B/c there was no way I was giving up all my hard earned education to stay home and keep house and raise kids. Any woman can do that.