is murder justified if the victim is a drug addict, prostitute, and/or transient?

[Tiay]

Yikes, scary

..what Illusional and Nomas said. Plus a little Gribble, too.

yes, if a child molester was killed I'd be less upset than if an innocent person was killed, but that doesn't mean we should murder murderers.. that just makes us as bad as them and how can we know for sure anyway, etc. I'm against the death penalty. For one, even evidence can lie (even modern forensics are not 100% reliable), and second, it's such a messed up concept. The system should be about protecting the public by locking the dangerous away, it is not about exacting revenge. Next thing you know we'll be chopping off thieves hands.
hm, reminds me of Dexter (tv series)

[Cbrider]

Yikes, scary

..what Illusional and Nomas said. Plus a little Gribble, too.

yes, if a child molester was killed I'd be less upset than if an innocent person was killed, but that doesn't mean we should murder murderers.. that just makes us as bad as them and how can we know for sure anyway, etc. I'm against the death penalty. For one, even evidence can lie (even modern forensics are not 100% reliable), and second, it's such a messed up concept. The system should be about protecting the public by locking the dangerous away, it is not about exacting revenge. Next thing you know we'll be chopping off thieves hands.
hm, reminds me of Dexter (tv series)

There are no certain things in this world, there is always a margin of error no matter how minuscule it may be, it exists. Every hour that ticks by brings fewer and fewer false convictions with the incredible rate of technological development. Last I heard technology was out pacing human development 7:1.

Locking people up is one way of protecting the public, so is taking a life. There are a lot of evils in this world, but some are absolutely necessary. Unfortunately taking human life is one of those things.

Everyone gets a chance in life, don't screw it up.

[Tiay]

Can anyone say Boondock Saints?

Eye for an eye is still a perfectly realistic and fair method of punishment in my mind. You take someones life, you get your throat slit, its that simple bar special cases and accidents. All people are born with a sense of right and wrong, theres no excuse for cold blood killing.

I disagree with this on several levels.

first of all, it is certainly not clear that "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" actually means that a criminal should be punished by having his own crime committed to him. I think that it merely symbolises that there should be a gradient of consequences that are measured to the severity of the crime. Ie, you shoplift, you get community service, or you kill someone, you get life in jail. That still upholds the meaning of "an eye for an eye" without stealing from a shoplifter or murdering a murderer.

and secondly, you claim to know that whenever someone does a major wrong, they knew that it was wrong? What if somebody was raised to think that, oh, say, black people are an inferior race and it is ok to abuse them? Would it not be conceivable that many people would simply accept this and live by it without ever realising that a few years down the line their actions would be considered wrong?
oh wait, that did happen.

as much as I despise people who do such vile things as abusing children, raping, killing, etc., if you look at those people's backgrounds, you will usually find that they had a severely messed up childhood or life in general.
this clearly supports the idea that a certain background or certain experiences will make a person more likely to be a murdered/rapist/whatever.

what if you had been born into those circumstances and turned out to be a messed up killer? does that make it fundamentally your fault?

No, I don't think so. Of course, such people should be kept away from the public, but I think that making a ritual out of killing them while others watch hoping that this will bring them some kind of peace is a disturbingly backwards idea that degrades the dignity of humanity.

or something. ^.^ [/rant]


edit: heh, I see you replied to my previous post while I was writing this one, so might have addressed some of what you said. oops, my bad, but now i'm all ranted out and I gotta call it a night as it is almost 2 AM here. Oh, but I should add that no matter how much better science gets, there is still a small chance that your DNA test matches with another persons, and this has actually happened.

[Gribble]

I firmly believe that when an adult attacks a child that adult has given up all rights as a human or even an animal. He or she is a monster and should be treated accordingly.

If anything death is too good for them. Perhaps using them as medical test subjects would be more beneficial to society.

[Tiay]

I firmly believe that when an adult attacks a child that adult has given up all rights as a human or even an animal. He or she is a monster and should be treated accordingly.

If anything death is too good for them. Perhaps using them as medical test subjects would be more beneficial to society.

If us "good" people (who are, of course, only 'good' because we are fortuante enough not to have suffered a messed up upbringing, and who are only "good" according to today's standard of morals, which as I pointed out can change rapidly) treat the 'monsters' like monsters, that makes us no better than them. Let's face it, those 'monsters' came out of our society, and instead of simply calling them evil and acting out our anger on those poor saps, we should be finding out how we can prevent such people from being 'created' in the first place, and how to detect and stop them before they hurt others.

argh, bad tiay, enough rants, now it really is 2 am. I'd better turn my internet off or something..

[TheGreek]

I'm for bringing back the death penalty in certain cases.

Some people are just not worth the tax dollars to be kept alive.

Just another reason I love TEXAS! hahaha

[Illusional]

Murder is never justified

if i were to kill someone, i would find it justifying.

raverboy

[Gribble]

I believe that at its core right and wrong is not subjective. It doesn't matter what a society's god says is okay, it doesn't matter what their general consensus is. On some level it's very clear cut. Raping a child is always wrong. Nothing can make that acceptable no matter what people may come to believe.

Frankly, I don't care what leads a person to become a pedophile in the first place. For whatever reason, that person has chosen to harm an innocent child. That's all that matters any more. I don't care if the guy was raped as a child himself. Once he's harmed a child he deserves the most vicious, most agonizing punishment conceivable.

I do agree that we should focus on figuring out what causes it and eliminating the problem at the source, though. I don't believe that means we should give pedophiles a slap on the wrist and return them to society after a few years in prison.

I'd rather see the criminals suffer, not the victims. And I promise you, if anyone ever harms someone I love they had better hope the cops get to them before me, and they had better hope that I die before they are ever released from prison. I promise you, If I get hold of 'em I will make Dexter look like Gandhi.

[Indignant]

I believe that at its core right and wrong is not subjective. It doesn't matter what a society's god says is okay, it doesn't matter what their general consensus is. On some level it's very clear cut. Raping a child is always wrong. Nothing can make that acceptable no matter what people may come to believe.

Frankly, I don't care what leads a person to become a pedophile in the first place. For whatever reason, that person has chosen to harm an innocent child. That's all that matters any more. I don't care if the guy was raped as a child himself. Once he's harmed a child he deserves the most vicious, most agonizing punishment conceivable.

I do agree that we should focus on figuring out what causes it and eliminating the problem at the source, though. I don't believe that means we should give pedophiles a slap on the wrist and return them to society after a few years in prison.

I'd rather see the criminals suffer, not the victims. And I promise you, if anyone ever harms someone I love they had better hope the cops get to them before me, and they had better hope that I die before they are ever released from prison. I promise you, If I get hold of 'em I will make Dexter look like Gandhi.

this is something that i have to agree on. i was molested when i was 6. wish someone had killed that asshole for me.

[Mish]

this is something that i have to agree on. i was molested when i was 6. wish someone had killed that asshole for me.

I'm sorry to hear about that Indig. Hope it didn't leave any lasting scars.

When I hear some of the stories from you people, it makes my life seem so sheltered in comparison.

[Tiay]

I believe that at its core right and wrong is not subjective. It doesn't matter what a society's god says is okay, it doesn't matter what their general consensus is. On some level it's very clear cut. Raping a child is always wrong. Nothing can make that acceptable no matter what people may come to believe.

I'm not saying that it's not wrong, I am saying that it is possible to raise a person in such a way that they will not realise that their behaviour is wrong. People's beliefs can make them do evil very happily. If you truly believe that homosexuals cause earthquakes that kill hundreds, then you will feel justified in killing them. I am NOT saying that this makes it acceptable, no way.

Frankly, I don't care what leads a person to become a pedophile in the first place. For whatever reason, that person has chosen to harm an innocent child. That's all that matters any more. I don't care if the guy was raped as a child himself. Once he's harmed a child he deserves the most vicious, most agonizing punishment conceivable.

really? ok, how about a moral dilemma for you, then. Let's say an evil genius kidnapps a child and subjects him to some unimaginably horrendous treatment that makes him grow up to be a rapist. Does killing the rapist in the most horrible way possible make things right in the world? No. What is the difference between the evil genius's rapist and another rapist who's own parents messed him up? None really, both were unwillingly subjected to some trauma growing up, it doesn't matter if they were kidnapped or born into it.

Your first thought might be to punish the evil genius, but that does not solve the problem. The problem simply regresses, because where did the evil genius come from? My point is that people don't just suddenly decide to do or become evil. A million uncontrollable things contributed to it.

I am not saying that we should throw up our hands and say "well nobody has free will so nothing is anyone's fault and thus we should hold nobody accountable for their actions", of course not, that's a silly exaggeration. But we should at least recognise that the question of who's 'fault' something is does not have a simple black and white answer.

And frankly, if you derive satisfaction from seeing a rapist be 'punished' in some vicious way, this makes you, on some level, no better than them, because you are taking pleasure from unnecessary suffering, and I personally believe this is a fundamental wrong.

I do agree that we should focus on figuring out what causes it and eliminating the problem at the source, though. I don't believe that means we should give pedophiles a slap on the wrist and return them to society after a few years in prison.

'course not, we can definitely agree on that.

I'd rather see the criminals suffer, not the victims. And I promise you, if anyone ever harms someone I love they had better hope the cops get to them before me, and they had better hope that I die before they are ever released from prison. I promise you, If I get hold of 'em I will make Dexter look like Gandhi.

I don't think anyone can blame you for feeling that way, in fact I think I'd probably feel the same way if I was so personally involved, though it is hard to know how I would act in a hypothetical situation so far removed from anything I've ever had to deal with.
Given a choice between seeing a criminal suffer or let them go free to harm someone else, I would obviously prefer the former.

-----
edit: I apologise to sombra for hijacking her thread so I will add that I think it is fair to say that we all agree that someone's social standing doesn't make crimes committed against them any less horrible, or justifiable in any way.
I do not believe that drug addicts, prostitutes, etc, simply decided one day to disrespect their bodies in such a way and that they thus deserve to be treated with less respect. I think that they ended up as drug addicts, etc, at least partly due to circumstances not in their power, and deserve the same treatment and respect as somebody else who happens to have been luckier in life.

[Gigabitch]

really? ok, how about a moral dilemma for you, then. Let's say an evil genius kidnapps a child and subjects him to some unimaginably horrendous treatment that makes him grow up to be a rapist. Does killing the rapist in the most horrible way possible make things right in the world? No. What is the difference between the evil genius's rapist and another rapist who's own parents messed him up? None really, both were unwillingly subjected to some trauma growing up, it doesn't matter if they were kidnapped or born into it.

Your first thought might be to punish the evil genius, but that does not solve the problem. The problem simply regresses, because where did the evil genius come from? My point is that people don't just suddenly decide to do or become evil. A million uncontrollable things contributed to it.

Nope. The first thought would be to eliminate the immediate threat to myself and my family, and that would be the rapist. I feel that whether or not it's the person's "fault" is immaterial. If they cross the line, it is their responsibility. If a severely retarded man with an IQ of 62 rapes my daughter, he will be killed just the same as an evil genius, and because it's my daughter, I'll do it myself. I don't trust our justice system to handle that kind of thing.

I wonder, if they ever catch this guy in Albuquerque, if they'll find that he had a record of rapes, assaults and animal abuse. In my opinion, people like that ought to be tracked.

[Tiay]

Nope. The first thought would be to eliminate the immediate threat to myself and my family, and that would be the rapist. I feel that whether or not it's the person's "fault" is immaterial. If they cross the line, it is their responsibility. If a severely retarded man with an IQ of 62 rapes my daughter, he will be killed just the same as an evil genius, and because it's my daughter, I'll do it myself. I don't trust our justice system to handle that kind of thing.

I wonder, if they ever catch this guy in Albuquerque, if they'll find that he had a record of rapes, assaults and animal abuse. In my opinion, people like that ought to be tracked.

oh, I meant like the fist thought about 'beating' the hypothetical moral dilemma, not if it was an actual real life situation.
edit; after all, the whole point of the 'evil genius' dilemma is to highlight the fact that in real life there is no 'evil genius' who can be 'blamed' so neatly for the creation of the rapist.

You guys are fighting strawmen! You make it sound like i'm saying criminals shouldn't be dealt with or should be let free because 'oh poor them it's not their fault'. That is NOT what I am saying. And I agree, if the system cannot be trusted, then going out and killing your daughter's hypothetical rapist (who probably would go on to hurt others) would, I bet, result in a better overall outcome. You don't need to tell me that; I already said that I would rather see a criminal suffer than see them live to hurt another innocent person. That is not the point.

The point is that if you think - and i'm not saying you guys do - but if you think that the rapist is the seed of the problem and that killing him as horribly as possible is the solution, then that idea will only lead you in angry circles.
Rapists or similarly messed up 'bad' people are not "weak souls" who were corrupted by satan or some bull like that. They are people who were probably messed up by their upbringing or background, who society could have detected and stopped or maybe helped if they had been detected in time. That way, nobody is hurt. That would be better.
that is all I am saying. I don't see why anybody would have a problem with that.

[vashti]

I am opposed to capital punishment, but I am not on board with you at all, Tiay. People are responsible for their behavior regardless of upbringing in my opinion. We live in a society where killing people is considered unacceptable, and the only way a person doesn't know this is if they were living under a rock.

The only factor seemingly unconsidered is severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia. I don't believe people with severe mental illness can be held responsible for their behavior. Nor do i believe children should be held entirely responsible for bad behavior because their brains are not fully formed.

i believe in harsh jail sentences. Also, pedophiles can not be rehabilitated, so they should be lifers.

[Only-virgins]

Shit, I say murder is even justified when speaking of politicians. Murder doesn't need justification, murderers don't give a **** what you think. People's mistake on this planet is to think that they have some right to create some international truth...as murder is wrong. More like that is what humans say but what they do goes more along the lines of murder is wrong unless we find it convenient. "OMG...A prostitute was murdered...noooooooooooooooooooooo....wait what do you want? sir...the Japanese want to talk....WHAT? **** that! BOMB THEM! Kill 70,000 of those mofos!....back to the prostitute..what a horrible tragedy!" I'm not saying one wrong makes another right, I'm just saying shit happens...and murder is one of that shit and it will never stop. Sometimes when someone feels that the consequence of murder is ok because someone did something so bad to them than they kill someone.