Problems of a tennage couple (part two)

[Paulsey]

We were just wondering if there was anything we could do (besides intercourse) to release sexual tension. Any suggestions are welcome.

[daletom]

My wife and I were both 23 when we exchanged virginity (she took mine & I got hers in return) on our wedding night. Our engagement lasted about 10 months. Out of respect for her wishes, and our values, we "waited for marriage". I think that was only possible because we had a definite point (our wedding) when we KNEW that we'd have full intercourse.

In the meantime, we did "just about everything BUT . . .". Some would say that we ceased being virgins long before we actually had intercourse, and I'll grant that they have a valid argument. The two of you will have to decide for ourselves how you feel about that.

In some ways I think my wife and I benefitted from the months of necking and petting before going all the way. We learned each others' sexual responses, and how to pleasure each other without insertion. Because of our comitment to "waiting", we learned to watch for each other getting too turned on - and how to either cut back the activity, or relieve the other partner.

You'll learn that there's a whole spectrum of activity between holding hands and full intercourse. There are lots of places to kiss and caress each other's bodies - some very reassuring and loving, others very erotic and arousing. You'll find that the effects vary from day to day, and at various points in your lovemaking session. For instance, mouthing or sucking my wife's nipples has essentially no effect on her until she reaches a certain level of arousal; they get untouchably sensitive as she goes into climax; and she wants them just gently held (no caressing or suckling) during afterglow.

You may decide that oral sex is aceptable for you two. If so, I hope you learn to do it well - it's a very significant part of many married couples' lovemaking. My wife wouldn't eat me to climax until after we were married - I had to dry-hump her hip or thigh, or she'd finish me with her hands. But (I think there's a double standard at work here) she had her very first orgasm from my eating her (about 6 months before marriage) and we often finished "dates" with her thighs wrapped around my ears. On several occasions I could tell, as her contractions subsided, that she would offer only token resistance (at best) if I started to guide myself into her - but we had made our promises, and respected each other enough to keep them.

If you want more specific ideas, try doing a search on the topic of "outercourse". That seems to be the currently fashionable term for what used to be called "petting" or "bundling".

[bluesummer]

That's what I was basically trying to get at in the first thread, but without the detail.

So, yeah......what he said.

[Paulsey]

Thanks for the information, it has been really helpful and we both finally found what we are going to. So again thanks to all(we settled on some outercourse stuff).

Now we have come across a wee problem. I'm having trouble giving my boyfriend imense pleasure with what we are doing now(rubbing of bodies together, aka, dry humping). What are some things I could do for him.


Thanks again for the help.

[JimmyHat]

Masterbate all day in front of each other....whats wrong with banging. You seem so worried about pleasing each other so just go for it. bang bang and more bang all day then record it so you both can masterbate to it.

[Chlorine]

daletom---that was a detailed response. Just wondering, where is the line? Isn't oral sex part of having sex? Or is sex just sexual intercourse? Such grey areas.

[Fawn]

Chlorine: They are all considered to be seperate. Since intercourse involves insertion and oral sex is just a form of fondling.

Yes, there are many grey areas. Since everyone has there own opinion on whats comfortable for them, there has to be a limit or line that they cannot cross. Though, sometimes, in the heat of "passion" it goes further then planned.

[whaywardj]

Chlorine: They are all considered to be seperate. Since intercourse involves insertion and oral sex is just a form of fondling.

Utter bullshit and drivel. Oral sex is sex. It is NOT just "fondling." Anyone who says otherwise is trying to kid themselves into believing they're not doing anything "sexual." Actually, ANY form of contact with genetalia is sexual.

BTW, please try to remember: one can contract H.I.V. just as easily from unprotected oral sex as they can from unprotected intercouse.

[daletom]

That's what I was basically trying to get at in the first thread, but without the detail.

So, yeah......what he said.

Thanks for the compliment and reinforcing my point! In this thread at least, the Canadians (you & Fawn) seem to be demonstrating exceptional insight & articulateness.

(Don't let my current "Location" fool you: my values and world-view were formed well north of the Mason-Dixon line. Many sociologists would probably tell you that I "fit in" better in Sudbury - in a "foreign" country - than St Louis.)

[daletom]

daletom---that was a detailed response. Just wondering, where is the line? Isn't oral sex part of having sex? Or is sex just sexual intercourse? Such grey areas.

Well, yes, I think I alluded to this problem:

. . . In the meantime, we did "just about everything BUT . . .". Some would say that we ceased being virgins long before we actually had intercourse, and I'll grant that they have a valid argument.

. . . You'll learn that there's a whole spectrum of activity between holding hands and full intercourse.

I'm still not absolutely certain - over 30 years later - that what we did was "best" or even "right" for us. My wife definitely thinks we went a bit too far; I'm not convinced that intercourse is entirely "wrong" for an engaged couple. (Perhaps this is an example of how two people in love can disagree, compromise, and still retain respect for each other's position.)

Yes, oral sex can be a part of "having sex" - or it can be a substitute. I see it in a spectrum of sexual activities. Fondling, kissing, hugging, caressing, holding hands, are all in that continuum, and are all part of "having sex". Your personal beliefs, parents' values, religious teaching, and community standards all help you decide where "the line" is. Without knowing about these things, it's difficult for me to be very precise with my suggestions. And as your status changes, appropriate behavior changes: even those who would actually encourage intercourse before marriage generally don't suggest that you sleep with every aquaintance of the opposite sex.

Without making overt value judgements, here's an outline of our (wife & I) behavior:
- We held hands on our first date (age 22). Perhaps that's a bit misleading - we wrote letters to each other for 3 months before we met, and were rather well acquainted before that "first date".
- We concluded our first date with a minute or two of real kissing - not just a perfunctory peck on the lips.
- For about 3 months our lovemaking was limited to deep kissing and mild caresses. Hands stayed outside of clothing, and away from genitals, buttocks, breasts, etc. (In retrospect, we learned that touching other places is almost as effective as caressing the forbidden places.)
- After 3 months we were engaged. Shortly after, hands started getting inside clothing, but stayed above the belts. We started discussing what was OK to do.
- About 2 months later we started being partially undressed, and caressing just about anywhere.
- About the time we started fondling below the belt, we had a pregnancy scare. We hadn't had intercourse, but we had discovered that stroking me to orgasm would cool things down if we were going too far.
- It must have been about 3 months into our engagement that we started doing oral sex. She was secretly rather proud of herself for making me squirm like that . . .
- At first, she went down on me more than she'd let me eat her. That changed after a month or so when I ate her to her first orgasm. I recall the event as vividly as our wedding night, with similar emotional attachments: I was able to REALLY pleasure my lover, and I was the FIRST guy to do it to her!
- We continued like that for another 4 - 5 months.

Our wedding night was some of the worst sex we've ever had. I wish we could do it over. (Poke around in my old posts and you'll find a thorough account.) But it was also EXTREMELY significant and meaningful as a personal and emotional experience. That points up something I don't think gets enough emphasis: there is ALWAYS some level of emotional attachment to sexual activity (even holding hands). I think that detached, "casual sex" with "no strings attached" is a myth.

OK - so where IS "the line"? My wife & I made a definite line about intercourse before marriage, but our other lines were rather indefinite. Yes, I was probably the one who did most of the pushing and she was the one who resisted and said, "No, we shouldn't do that." At least until she had that first climax - after that she seldom protested when I chose to end our time together with her thighs around my ears. Unfortunately, she sometimes felt guilty afterwards so perhaps that was "going too far" for us.

Post script: Our daughter (who 3 weeks ago graduated college with a double major and the top academic record in her department - obviously the recipient of superior genetic material!) will be married next weekend. She and her fiance have taken almost the oppsite approach: they decided that there will be NO kissing, necking, fondling, etc before marriage. I told her that I thought that was unrealistic, and potentially harmful, but I think they've kept to their comittment. It might be interesting to see, 30 years from now, how one of them might respond to this thread.

[daletom]

BTW, please try to remember: one can contract H.I.V. just as easily from unprotected oral sex as they can from unprotected intercouse.

My recollection is that statistically the oral-genital transmission mechanism lags far behind other modes. If you can cite a controlled study, I'd like to see it because "common sense" says there shouldn't be much difference.

The whole tone of your post underscores something I said previously: a LOT of "sex education" seems to dwell on things like AIDS susceptibility, risk of pregnancy, addictive behaviors, etc. It seems to totally ignore the ethical, emotional and spiritual elements of sexuality. Without ignoring the VERY REAL problems of STD's, unwanted pregnancy, etc, I wish we'd see more about happy marriages, selfless parenting, mutual fulfillment, etc.

[Fawn]

Utter bullshit and drivel. Oral sex is sex. It is NOT just "fondling." Anyone who says otherwise is trying to kid themselves into believing they're not doing anything "sexual." Actually, ANY form of contact with genetalia is sexual.

BTW, please try to remember: one can contract H.I.V. just as easily from unprotected oral sex as they can from unprotected intercouse.

Alright, don't **** with me. Of course its sexual, did I say it wasn't! Either way, oral is not SEX. If you ever heard of the "birds and the bees" you might know that intercourse involves putting your tiny little dick into a womens vagina. Oral is just a "form" of sex. You can't get pregnant from oral, unless a guy is stupid and deliberatly puts his semen onto/in her vagina. SO.. go get a sex education book and start reading.

[shh!]

Fawn, most people DO consider oral sex to be sex. That is why the word "oral" is followed by the word "sex".

[Fawn]

Meh, I'm not in a good mood this morning.

[Chlorine]

whaywardj----Your retort cleared up whatever grey areas I had.

daletom----The grey areas result from personal values/standards/beliefs which often clash with the current trend of 'anything goes'. Very few people have the self control of your daughter. Therefore it helps to know what is and what isn't acceptable. Thanks for sharing.