I really like this girl... but she has a boyfriend!

[TheEvilJester]

And the decision to end a relationship belongs to ONE person. Not two.
The opposite would be like saying if you quit your job, your boss has to agree with you.

LOL! Okay, good point, but I think you're sort of taking my words a little too literally. So, perhaps if I rephrase...

More so what I meant is there are only two people who should ultimately have the power to make that decision. One or the other (or both) of the people in the relationship. Just, my point being I don't think anybody on the outside should be trying to push that decision either way. It's one thing for a close friend or family member to offer their thoughts, their love, and their support... but nobody should be trying to influence either person toward a specific decision... that decision belongs to the couple, or at least the one person who has maybe hit their breaking point.

Where you and I DO agree, I think, is that I don't see any problem with passively displaying yourself as a viable option. In other words, in my personal opinion at least, it is wrong to actively be trying to get somebody to leave their current relationship to be with you..... but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you simply being a good person. Being there for them as a friend (though, maybe don't actually use those words) as a way of passively sort of showing them that there ARE other options out there, so to speak.

I still don't think you should do that with the specific ulterior motive of thinking that will cause them to leave their current relationship, though. You should do that assuming their current relationship will remain in tact, but just allowing for the possibility, if it does not, that you could then take the opportunity to ask them out at a more appropriate time.

I don't know. Again, maybe I am just old-fashioned. I really don't know. I just don't personally think it is ever right to become an active participant in trying to end somebody's relationship.... not even if you do know it isn't a happy one. To me, once a guy hears that the gal he is interested in already has a boyfriend, that should instantly say to him "Okay... she's not available to me, so I will act as though she's not an option at all." That can mean you treat her as a friend and hope maybe that situation could change in the future..... that can mean you distance yourself completely because you'd rather not be just a friend to her.... whatever works for the particular person. I just find it disrespectful to both the gal and her boyfriend if a guy knows she has a boyfriend and yet feels that doesn't change his plans to court her anyway.

[Hooo!]

Where you and I DO agree, I think, is that I don't see any problem with activelydisplaying yourself as a viable option.

fixed that for you



I still don't think you should do that with the specific ulterior motive of thinking that will cause them to leave their current relationship, though. You should do that assuming their current relationship will remain in tact, but just allowing for the possibility, if it does not, that you could then take the opportunity to ask them out at a more appropriate time.

[...] being an active participant in trying to end somebody's relationship.... not even if you do know it isn't a happy one. To me, once a guy hears that the gal he is interested in already has a boyfriend, that should instantly say to him "Okay... she's not available to me, so I will act as though she's not an option at all." That can mean you treat her as a friend and hope maybe that situation could change in the future..... that can mean you distance yourself completely because you'd rather not be just a friend to her.... whatever works for the particular person. I just find it disrespectful to both the gal and her boyfriend if a guy knows she has a boyfriend and yet feels that doesn't change his plans to court her anyway.

There you are wrong (from my point of perspective). You should NOT be actively trying to end a relationship. You should actively trying to BEGIN a new relationship. Big difference.
You can do one thing without the other.
Only because she is with someone else - that doesnt mean she is automatically not available to you. She only is not available if she is not interested (because she doesnt like you, or because she only wants to be with her partner or because of some other reason). If you are not interested in her because she is ****ing with someone else and you have issues about that. Well thats a different matter.
I would not treat anyone I wanted to seduce as if I had no penis. That is lying and pretending. And just waiting and hoping is also not going to do get you anywhere and is also pretending. Hoping without action is like starving without wanting to eat.

Look at it like that: Girl A is with Boy B and they are both exclusive and absolutely happy. Girl A is the prettiest girl on planet earth tho. Naturally that means she will get hit upon. A lot.
Should all the guys who hit on her shame themselves for it? Should they try to pretend that they are not interested? Should they tell her that they are friends in the hope that she will someday sleep with them hopefully?
Neither of those things are good scenarios.
If I was interested and Girl A doesnt want to sleep with me that is fine. If she still wanted to hang out that would be fine too (as long as I am fine with it at least). Would or should I change my behavior because of it? Ofcourse not. Id be pretending to her - and that is a most ungentlemenlike behavior.
If she is indeed interested in me and wants to be intimate what should I do then: THAT depends on me (and what I am ok for myself with): Either I am ok that she is seing her boyfriend besides me, or I am not ok with it. However deciding if that was ok for HER is a stupid thing. Trying to decide that for her boyfriend is the next stupid thing.

Another scenario. You work as a salesman. Company A uses products from company B. They are reasonably happy with those products. You now speak to company A and want to sell them your own product. Your product is at least the same quality and price.
You have now several options: Stop speaking to A because its no use.
Staying in contact from time to time to see if they are still happy.
Providing all services without any kind of return and without any reminder that you are interested and let A use you. (befrieding them and hoping and pretending you are gay).
Showing A what benefits they have for buying your product. Showing them how great their product is.
Lying and insulting product B.

some of those are sensible options to take - others are not.
I would argue that pretending to not want to sell anything and hoping that they might buy you product at some point seems rather foolish to me.

[TheEvilJester]

Big difference, though, between products and human beings. Between a company selling a product who therefore should have no reason at all they shouldn't try to sell it to other customers as well, and between somebody who is in a committed relationship cheating on their partner.

What you are describing just, to me personally, feels like being a willing partner in helping somebody to cheat. Or at least having that intention. Do I think "Boy C" in your scenario should wait around for her hoping she becomes available. My answer to that is almost always no. Almost 100% of the time I say that is a waste of your time. This particular situation may just be one of the rare cases where that may not be such a bad idea, because it sounds like she DOES have some interest in him.

Do I think Boy C in your scenario should "pretend" to be just her friend in hopes she'll like him. No. Absolutely not. As I see it, in most cases there are two options that aren't crossing the line in a situation like this. A) You decide to remain just friends with the person, and actually are okay with being just friends. That doesn't mean you can't maybe reconsider if their situation should ever change, but they are in a relationship now so you back off and respect that. B) You decide you can't handle being just friends with them because you would only be wanting more.... so you decide instead to keep your distance from them to spare yourself that pain.

Again, this may just be my personal feeling, but I cannot agree with an attitude of "Well, she has a boyfriend, but that's not my problem. It's up to her to decide if she wants to remain faithful to him or if she might want some action on the side. So, I'm going to keep pursuing her anyway and she can decide how she wants to respond." I just find that to be terribly ungentlemanly. I find it very disrespectful. That may just be me, I don't know.

Again, though, this case may be a little bit different because the girl in this situation actually does have feelings for the OP. So, I guess maybe a little more of a gray area than usual because A) he knows she likes him too and B) he knows she's in an unhappy relationship. I still personally think you step back and let her come to that decision on her own and then maybe explore a relationship... but again, maybe that's just me.

[aya91]

Little, potentially unpleasant update: things have become a bit more intimate. She initiated it, she really wanted it and it and for both of us it was the best kiss we've ever had. We didn't go further (although far enough!). This makes the situation a lot trickier than before. She doesn't regret it, but she is very torn apart and very insecure about what to do. Staying in her current relationship would probably be very hard, as she couldn't trust herself anymore, and she isn't satisfied, but leaving it is equally hard, since it's her first real relationship, and she's afraid of hurting him, and of leaving behind that part of her life. What's currently happening is pretty much what Hooo! is describing.

And even though nothing romantic had happened before, we have been seeing each other every single day for the past weeks, and our mutual feelings have been our secret - ignoring each other when we randomly meet in the hallway, just to secretly see each other and talk for a few minutes in an empty staircase. It feels wrong, but it also feels passionate, intimate and surreal. I should probably stop seeing her altogether, but right now she feels like the most wonderful and beautiful person I've ever met, and I couldn't let her go, especially if she wants me to stay.

The way I read her is that she wants to break up, but doesn't have the courage to do so. And again, I'm not going to be the one to tell her to do so. At this point, I'm fairly confident that if I just keep seeing her and being by her side (while avoiding intimacy) it will happen. She's happy with me, she smiles and she feels secure and seduced.
Should I keep seeing her and wait until she decides to break up? Should I give her an ultimatum to choose between me and him? Should I step back and hope that it will actually make her long for me even more, thus forcing her to act? I'm afraid that if things keep going like this, she'll just be "dating" both of us indefinitely because she doesn't have the determination to make a painful decision.


I should add that I have been cheated on myself at the end of a 5 year long relationship, and while at first it was extremely painful, that girl is now in a very happy relationship, and I'm happy for her...

[richiro]

never get involved or develop feelings for somebody with another person ever!
you can't steal them away
if they really wanted to leave they would've left by now
you are the convenient person to lean on for her and once she doens't need that you're gone.

spend your energeis on somebody who's single and unattached.

[pcmaster]

Agree with Richiro here. Think it would be possible to get girl and make her leave the guy. But not for you. You seem too much into it, also you seem like a guy who dont get girls easy. Someone who care less and dont actually need the girl could get her. But you are opposite and it only makes it harder for you.
Best you can do is dont risk here. She have a BF already and she can choose to leave him and be instantly with you. You have nothing but you risk to get your heart broken and get in a second place and second sucks in this situation.
If I were in your place I would probably dont give up until girl stops talking to me. But I never been in your situation cause my morals dont let me get with girls who have BFs. I see them uninteresting. So I dont even try. Its hard already with single girls so no need even more trouble especially from BF.

So yeah man even if she leaves her BF she wouldnt be ready to be in relationship straight away and you might be just a rebound.
I suggest to be nice to this girl but dont message her first and dont initiate contact until she leaves her BF. Would be good to tell her to call you once shes single but dont wait for it and carry on with your own life.
So thats what I would do in your place.

Now if I really liked a girl who had a BF and I believed we can be together one day then I would give her a rose or flowers and leave it like that, dont conntact her and if stars will align then I would meet her again someday when shes single.

Basicaly thats all what you can do to taken girls - give them flowers, even in front of their BF cause it makes boyfriends jealous but girls always like flowers and its nice to get them even from a stranger guy on a street.

[QUOTE]Do I think "Boy C" in your scenario should wait around for her hoping she becomes available. My answer to that is almost always no. Almost 100% of the time I say that is a waste of your time. This particular situation may just be one of the rare cases where that may not be such a bad idea, because it sounds like she DOES have some interest in him.[QUOTE/] [MENTION=71386]TheEvilJester[/MENTION]
Been hearing of real life cases where guys been waiting for a girl but it took them years of staying near and waiting till girl will go tru dick carousel until they are no longer beautiful and all natural beauty is given away to another guys, then girl will get tired of all the drama and go for a nice guy whos been there by her side all these years.

One girl from this forum - I used to be a friend with her on this forum so I know her story was that she had ex who she had dumped and she did date with a player but always called her ex for emotional support. Her ex was always there for her for years. At least 3 years he was emotionally supporting her and sending her money to buy little things despite that she was well off on her own just didnt wanted to work or spend her own money. So after like 3-4 years she went to a trip with her ex and they decided to get married cause he wanted it all along but she was doubting, but since she didnt wanted to work or live in Russia she agreed to marry him and live somewhere abroad.

Only beta guys wait for a girl. Alpha guys dont play these games cause they are girls FIRST choice.

[Hooo!]

I cannot agree with an attitude of "Well, she has a boyfriend, but that's not my problem. It's up to her to decide if she wants to remain faithful to him or if she might want some action on the side. So, I'm going to keep pursuing her anyway and she can decide how she wants to respond." I just find that to be terribly ungentlemanly. I find it very disrespectful. That may just be me, I don't know.

I do not know how you are ungentlemanly if you tell her you want her and it is her decision to make (aka you provide yourself as an option).
I do not know what about continuing to provide that option if she says no is wrong. If she doesnt wanna hang out with you anymore then that is her decision.
Your being like: if she tells me she doesnt want it, then all your intentions are _really_ gone and you can be _just friends_ with her? Im not getting fooled by that one.

If she tells you know and you keep being "just friends" with her, then you are lying. You are no friend. You lurk in the shadows - waiting.
And I think that is very ungentlemanlike.

never get involved or develop feelings for somebody with another person ever!
you can't steal them away
if they really wanted to leave they would've left by now
you are the convenient person to lean on for her and once she doens't need that you're gone.
spend your energeis on somebody who's single and unattached.

well im getting married to one in 5 months time. So quite obviously (after 8 years of relationship) I can say that it has worked for me.
And I didnt steal them away. My intention was for her to be with me.
And thus it became true. She left the guy and then went to be with me.

And the guy is now happily married with 2 children.

- - - Updated - - -

Only beta guys wait for a girl. Alpha guys dont play these games cause they are girls FIRST choice.

i disagree with most anything you wrote before as explained before but i find this is terribly correct.

[TheEvilJester]

I do not know how you are ungentlemanly if you tell her you want her and it is her decision to make (aka you provide yourself as an option).
I do not know what about continuing to provide that option if she says no is wrong. If she doesnt wanna hang out with you anymore then that is her decision.
Your being like: if she tells me she doesnt want it, then all your intentions are _really_ gone and you can be _just friends_ with her? Im not getting fooled by that one.

If she tells you know and you keep being "just friends" with her, then you are lying. You are no friend. You lurk in the shadows - waiting.
And I think that is very ungentlemanlike.

As I've said, if you tell her you are remaining "just friends" but you are really just lurking around hoping for it to become more, then YES, I agree you are lying and YES I agree that is very ungentlemanly. As far as I am concerned, when you hear somebody is taken, there are two appropriate options. 1) You decide you are only interested in them romantically. Since they are not single, you decide it best to step aside and not remain in contact with them. 2) You were interested in them romantically, but you decide you don't mind being just friends.... So you proceed with the assumption that you are just friends and that is not going to change. You don't just wait around hoping it will change, you remain their friend actually assuming it will not. That isn't to say you can't try again if they happen to become single, but at least for while they are not, you consider them a friend and nothing more.

Again, I guess just chalk it up to a difference of opinion, but I don't personally think it is appropriate to hear somebody is in a relationship and yet decide to pursue them anyway. To each his/her own, though. That's just me.

[Hooo!]

2) You were interested in them romantically, but you decide you don't mind being just friends.... So you proceed with the assumption that you are just friends and that is not going to change.

and you suddenly dont like to **** her anymore and shes all uninteresting to you as a girl too?
answer before reading on.



If you choose the second option, then please do not lie to yourself or to her.
If you like her to be your partner then that is not gonna change if she says no to you. At least not suddenly.
You can assume that nothing is gonna change,
but you should not hide the fact (lying, betrayal of trust, not honest) that you would like things to be otherwise.

Since I would not hide my intentions i would just openly (but respectfully and in a way that gives her freedom to say no repeatedly) seduce her further.
Id be myself around her. Meaning i would (also) be my romantically and sexually interested self around her.

Id not press on her. Id not "make her cheat". Id not beg or discuss it with her openly (just once and if she brings it up). It just be who i am.
But that inculdes being interested in her. And im not kidding her or myself that it is otherwise.