Relationship with Friends

[nomas]

I think we have reached a difference in definition. Agree to disagree on this one Nomas.

Well, I don't like the idea of having someone think my theory on this behavoir is manipulative because manipulation (most of the time) is negative in my eyes, but I agree that we probably won't convince each other of the other's point of view.

Agreed, Indi.

[indigosoul]

Ah..but you only think this once after you know it's failed. It's one of those things: Is it better to take the chance at something greater than to live life without wondering what may have been? Not be be confused with "it's better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all"..because here you know the outcome..you loved and you lost.

But when you take big risks is when, I think, you find the REAL kind of lasting relationships..

You're confusing ideas here, tho Nomas. FWB is about sex, isn't it? All ppl are saying is that is isn't worth it JUST FOR SEX, which is (relatively) easily had (vs. finding a trusted friend).

What you're talking about is different tho. Friends to lovers, or in your case Great Love Of Your Life is totally worth going for. No one here would argue otherwise, I think. But this is, of course, about much more than just sex.

[indigosoul]

Well, I don't like the idea of having someone think my theory on this behavoir is manipulative

In a word: tough

Well, I don't like the idea of having someone think my theory on this behavoir is manipulative because manipulation (most of the time) is negative in my eyes, but I agree that we probably won't convince each other of the other's point of view.

Agreed, Indi.

Well, it all depends. I manipulate my young son all the time in an attempt to stimulate his development. Much like your dance, I move, he "moves" (mentally), until he reaches the point where he is ready for "full disclosure" of a concept, so to speak. I think this is perfectly acceptable.

You argue you are merely being "reserved", which is a good thing I think. Except that you're not. You are "perturbing the system", which is manipulation. As an engineer you understand this, I know. And that is the difference.

The problem arises when you are making this decision for another thinking adult. Who may be insulted when they figure out what you've been doing, is all.

Here's a thought for you: Why not discuss THIS topic (your balance theory) w/the person of interest. Their response on the subject should give you a good indication on how to proceed...

If it were me (for example), you'd best get more upfront about what you're thinking/feeling after that conversation. Else later (once I unravelled your thoughts) I'd actually worry that you have serious control and/or honesty/trust issues going on... IMHO, of course.

[nomas]

You're confusing ideas here, tho Nomas. FWB is about sex, isn't it? All ppl are saying is that is isn't worth it JUST FOR SEX, which is (relatively) easily had (vs. finding a trusted friend).

What you're talking about is different tho. Friends to lovers, or in your case Great Love Of Your Life is totally worth going for. No one here would argue otherwise, I think. But this is, of course, about much more than just sex.

Yeah, good point.

Is the only difference just the sex part? After all, isn't that the only thing that separates great friends from lovers? Just the sex, really. Other than that, you still like to spend time with one another, you think each other are cool, you talk to one another about your problems and personal stuff..

So is sex this important?? Does it fulfill a relationship so that it's "complete"? And why does is this also the cause of problems afterward?

When Harry met Sally. Up until they had sex they were awsome friends, they'd have their spats but would work it out and kiss and make up...but sex complicated matters..

Hmm...

[nomas]

Well, it all depends. I manipulate my young son all the time in an attempt to stimulate his development. Much like your dance, I move, he "moves" (mentally), until he reaches the point where he is ready for "full disclosure" of a concept, so to speak. I think this is perfectly acceptable.

I think that you're referring to me saying that I think manipulation is negative most of the time, but that's why I said "most of the time"..there are cases like your example where there's method to your madness..

You argue you are merely being "reserved", which is a good thing I think. Except that you're not. You are "perturbing the system", which is manipulation. As an engineer you understand this, I know. And that is the difference.

I don't understand how I'm perturbing the system..becuase I don't lay all cards on the table? I'm talking about being controlled in your behavior for valid reasons. Overzealousy early own leads to a turn off on the opposite end if the overzealousy is not immediately reciprocated. Which system or set of rules are being violated? Behavior is a matter of will. You behave as you want to behave, you have control over it. Here we go: behavior can be manipulated..but this is far from manipulating a person. And don't take this as meaning you're putting up a front. I'm just saying: choose to be introverted or private about some things. An introverted or private person doesn't open up as much and expose themselves for all to see, but this doesn't make them fronters. Nobody has the right to force them to open up and reveal themselves or call them fronters if they don't.

The problem arises when you are making this decision for another thinking adult. Who may be insulted when they figure out what you've been doing, is all.

This is a valid point. But I think it varies from person to person. I think it can be a problem if someone likes to know EVERYTHING about exactly what's going on in another individual's mind at all times, in which case they very well may be insulted that you witheld information or concealed feelings early on.

Here's a thought for you: Why not discuss THIS topic (your balance theory) w/the person of interest. Their response on the subject should give you a good indication on how to proceed...

Sorry, no such person of interest exists at the moment. This is purely hypothetical discussion in my part.

If it were me (for example), you'd best get more upfront about what you're thinking/feeling after that conversation. Else later (once I unravelled your thoughts) I'd actually worry that you have serious control and/or honesty/trust issues going on... IMHO, of course.

Maybe there's a huge difference in the level of importance we each give these thoughts. If it were me, for example, I'd have no qualms if years later you'd tell me.."hey, remember when we first met...I was really into you and would do anything for you, but I knew you didn't feel the same for me so I never gave you any clue that I felt that way". I'd say "I assumed as much.." (because I'm so damn intuitive..) no, but seriously, given the extremely rare instance that I didn't suspect this..I'd say "Oh, really? Wow..interesting...I never would have guessed..." Or something along those lines..no big deal...just food for conversation in my book. I wouldn't think that this person was dishonest or untrustworthy, because, really, what is it she doesn't trust? Me to feel the same way? Obviously, if I'm sending the message that I'm not into her, then why should she trust me to feel the same way?

[indigosoul]

Sorry, no such person of interest exists at the moment. This is purely hypothetical discussion in my part

Maybe there's a huge difference in the level of importance we each give these thoughts. If it were me, for example, I'd have no qualms if years later you'd tell me.."hey, remember when we first met...I was really into you and would do anything for you, but I knew you didn't feel the same for me so I never gave you any clue that I felt that way". I'd say "I assumed as much.." (because I'm so damn intuitive..) no, but seriously, given the extremely rare instance that I didn't suspect this..I'd say "Oh, really? Wow..interesting...I never would have guessed..." Or something along those lines..no big deal...just food for conversation in my book. I wouldn't think that this person was dishonest or untrustworthy, because, really, what is it she doesn't trust? Me to feel the same way? Obviously, if I'm sending the message that I'm not into her, then why should she trust me to feel the same way?

Sorry for you, BTW. But perhaps one day you'll get to put theory to practice...

The thing you seem to miss w/your idea is that you might miss the boat entirely if your "friend" is poised on the edge... someone else may come along, who is more forthright, and you'll lose out. Simply b/c you were not upfront enough. Perhaps.

[nomas]

The thing you seem to miss w/your idea is that you might miss the boat entirely if your "friend" is poised on the edge... someone else may come along, who is more forthright, and you'll lose out. Simply b/c you were not upfront enough. Perhaps.

I'm not sure what you mean by "poised on the edge"..can you elaborate, please.

As far as the second part, I see what you mean, but maybe you have the wrong idea of my theory. I'm not saying "don't show any interest" in an individual..simply don't tip the balance. If someone's not being very enthusiastic with your company, don't you go showing that you want to spend every second of your existence near this person..that would most likely turn the less interested person off. However, if you play it cool and you don't tip the balance and you see more of each other..via more exposure you may, I hate to say it, "grow on a person" and they'll see values in you they like and as their interest in you increases you may, accordingly, increase your show of affection.

I'm just stating that showing too much when the other shows not much at all is definite doom of a relationship, whether romantic or friendship

[indigosoul]

I'm not sure what you mean by "poised on the edge"..can you elaborate, please.

Simply, that they might be interested in "more than friends" but are undecided, for any number of reasons only they know. One possibly being that they don't know enough about what YOU'RE thinking... then someone else comes along who is more open/shows more interest and they think "well, why not? XXX doesn't seem to care...". Poof! goes YOUR happy ending.

However, if you play it cool and you don't tip the balance and you see more of each other..via more exposure you may, I hate to say it, "grow on a person" and they'll see values in you they like and as their interest in you increases you may, accordingly, increase your show of affection.

OK, I get this. You are starting to repeat yourself. I agree this can work. However, we were discussing FWB. I would argue your method is most suitable for someone who doesn't really know you all that well. FWB (of the scenario we were discussing) already knows you & likes you, hopefully for who you are. All that is missing is the disclosure of more romantic feelings. What's the point of doing this piecemeal?

I'm just stating that showing too much when the other shows not much at all is definite doom of a relationship, whether romantic or friendship

Depends on why the other person isn't showing. Figure THAT out, and your problem is solved. Hypothetically. Again, reasons will be different for "friends" vs. "acquaintance".

[artyemi]

Ah..but you only think this once after you know it's failed. It's one of those things: Is it better to take the chance at something greater than to live life without wondering what may have been? Not be be confused with "it's better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all"..because here you know the outcome..you loved and you lost.

Again, I don't know if anything has failed. I'm putting my place in other people's shoes right now, so I really don't know if anything has been lost or found.
Take amIasleaze for example. She's getting to give someone the benefit of oral sex without herself receiving any. When she loses this relationship, or wants to stop it, the guy will probably think that there's no further point in pursuing anything else because he's got getting "any" anymore. She will lose both the friendship and the sex.

And is she getting anything greater with the younger brother? Has she loved?

Is it better to take the chance at something greater than to live life without wondering what may have been?

When you take a chance at something greater, you live life without wondering what may have been. If you don't take the chance, you live life wondering what may have been. BUT, if you do take the chance, you also wonder what may have been if you've never taken it in the first place.

Like, I took a chance with something, as you know. And every single day, I wonder what would have happened if I never took that chance.

But I know that if I hadn't taken that chance, I would have also wondered what would happen if I did.

But when you take big risks is when, I think, you find the REAL kind of lasting relationships...not the kind where you stay together because you're in love with the idea of a life partner..

I agree with this one, not only for the love aspect of it, but also for any relationship.

Imagine meeting a guy at a random party, turns out he saw you on the bus and recognized you. Imagine that! He recognized you from the bus from two days ago. Normally, one would say that's so cool and move on to talk with the regular group.

But, you take a bigger step. You talk with this person. Turns out, he works for the same company you do. In fact, he's in the building right behind yours. That's cool, huh?

But he's on the way out. You could easily let him go and think, that's pretty neat to meet someone who recognized you from a bus, who happened to have mutual friends, and who work in the same company.

But you decided to ask him for his contact information. Some people might get it and just leave it at that. But you pursued it. Sent him an email. And the following week, you went out for lunch! See, made a new friend.

And of course, for discovering REAL "love" type of relationship. I don't know if you're referring to taking a huge step in the first place, or taking the risk again after knowing what happened the first time.

For me, I'll say for both. In the second aspect, I just consider it working hard at something to make it work because that's what relationships are about. You work hard at it. It's not something that exists on its own.

I guess it's because I believe risk walk hand in hand with dedication. Sometimes, you have to take risk to show that you are dedicated to something.

[artyemi]

Yeah, good point.

Is the only difference just the sex part? After all, isn't that the only thing that separates great friends from lovers? Just the sex, really. Other than that, you still like to spend time with one another, you think each other are cool, you talk to one another about your problems and personal stuff..

So is sex this important?? Does it fulfill a relationship so that it's "complete"? And why does is this also the cause of problems afterward?

When Harry met Sally. Up until they had sex they were awsome friends, they'd have their spats but would work it out and kiss and make up...but sex complicated matters..

Hmm...

Quite a bit of people connect sex with a higher level of intimacy and believe that that level of intimacy ought to be exclusive. I think that's what creates the problem.

[indigosoul]

I don't understand how I'm perturbing the system..

Well, are you or are you not conducting an experiment?

1. A stimulus (also called perturbation) is applied: your controlled amount of shown interest.
2. A result is observed: the level of interest your OOI (object of interest) shows

If high, then act one way, if low, act another.

Your next action will be determined by their response, towards a particular goal (getting them to show/feel more interest). If you weren't manipulating the system, your next stimulus would be random (b/c you're just collecting unbiased data, right?). Sorry but this is manipulation (as I define it). You are carefully arranging your actions to produce a DESIRED, and decidedly unbiased response from them.

Nobody has the right to force them to open up and reveal themselves or call them fronters if they don't.

Of course not. I never said this. But some might argue you are not being honest by calling yourself "friend" when you are really maneuvering for more...

[whaywardj]

Whoa!

"...Is the only difference just the sex part? After all, isn't that the only thing that separates great friends from lovers?"

Nomas: Repeat that aloud to yourself a few times VERY slowly and think about what it actually means. Surely, you don't mean that, do you?

[Gypsy]

I think it is not a male/female issue but rather an individual issue and speaking for myself I married my best friend (2nd marriage) great marriage, but my first marriage we were never friends we did everything so fast the kissing the sex etc.... that marriage lasted all of 1 year. I now have been married for 10 years to my best friend. We have a solid relationship that continues to grow and grow.

[indigosoul]

Is the only difference just the sex part? After all, isn't that the only thing that separates great friends from lovers? Just the sex, really. Other than that, you still like to spend time with one another, you think each other are cool, you talk to one another about your problems and personal stuff..

So is sex this important?? Does it fulfill a relationship so that it's "complete"? And why does is this also the cause of problems afterward?

This response is to both you, Nomas, and W. (who asked you this)

In my opinion ONLY, NO, the sex is not that important. But not in the way you might think.

I think that sex (i.e. the physical act) is only one of many indications of a great relationship b/t great friends WHO ARE ALSO lovers. It the combination that is rare, I think. Sex b/t two different ppl is defined as lovers, and is relatively common, I think. But this doesn't say anything about how they care/understand/accept each other as individuals.

Likewise you can have a good friend, who you don't have sex with, and you get along with really well. But I would argue there is always some level of reserve, or holding back that is always present. Even with good friends, they probably don't really understand YOU at any fundamental level. Or they understand you, but only so far and within a certain context.

Now, let's say you have a FRIEND (i.e. no sex), who loves you, understands you, and accepts you FOR WHO YOU REALLY ARE, and you feel the same for them. I would argue that physical sex is almost moot in this rare case. I would further suggest that there is probably some external barrier preventing sex b/t such a couple (and they are, make no mistake), it being such a natural expression of such emotions. The reason is that there is already SEX OF THE MIND, which is sooo much more powerful. If you find this, you'd best not screw it up w/insecure manipulation games, is all I'm saying.

So, no, the sex isn't that importan, Nomas. Because its already there. I hope this makes sense, its hard to put into words...

(Thanks W, btw, for helping clarify my thoughts on all this recently)

[indigosoul]

Why in 10 years? whats wrong with me now? what part of he has to "temper"?

Hi OV, Sorry, I had missed this. Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong w/you. I totally enjoy your sense of humour. I meant "temper" as in metalwork. (steel is tempered iron, strong & flexible) But some ppl might find your bluntness offensive. Unless you want to go live off in the bush somewhere (& nothing wrong w/that either), you'll find you'll have to adopt a certain level of interface to get along w/the rest of society, is all. Not a lot of ppl want and/or are able to hear your version of "truth", is all. And "screw them, then" wont get you very far unfortunately.

From someone who's been there.