Violent Crime: Who or what is to blame?

[Junket]

Personally I'd be fine with living in a self-made hut, having to hunt for my own food and provide all my own basic needs. But no one else is going to do that so to pursue that idea would be foolish on my part as it wouldn't really have any positive effect on the world.

With technology what we need to remember is that just because it's available doesn't mean we should use it or have it. And you and I both know that guns aren't part of the group of things we should have or use. Your entire argument consists of "well i should be able to do whatever i want because it's my life". But again, we both know that that is irrational and arguing for gun rights just because it's something to have is illogical. We as people have an innate responsibility to the community because if the community dies, so do we. What you're continually suggesting is that we live in a society that is truly survival of the fittest. But that isn't true either as is evidenced by Fox news.

What I'm asking now is that you provide a logical argument for why all Americans should be able to go town to K-Mart and buy a rifle. Not a party line and not some trite "i thought this was america!" bumper-sticker quote, but a real, thought out argument for why guns are important to our society.

I never suggested we are a society based off of "survival of the fittest". You introduced that idea to the argument, not I.
I pointed out the flaws of the point you were making.

In any case, as I'm starting to sound like a broken record, self defense is why. Why does anybody learn any kind of fighting discipline?

[url]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html[/url]
[url]http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/[/url]

Compare and contrast.

Motor vehicles don't just kill the ozone, they kill more people than firearms do.

So let's think about this.

Driving is a privilege, you need to take a test before you're given a license.
I proposed before in past arguments that I wouldn't mind mandatory tests and training before issuing of firearms. In fact, that makes a shit load more sense to me anyway. It couldn't be federally controlled however, as that would defeat the point of "the right to bear arms", which I believe in. Even if monitored by the state, I would still be nervous.

In any case, regardless, I will always believe in a right to bear arms.

So, who cares?

Why don't you just lead by example and...not own a gun?

That's the beauty of America.

[anachronistic]

Toledo (compared to Los Angeles) is very, very small and pretty homogenous. I don't think it would compare to a big city.

Anyway, sorry about your granny. I think it is shocking you are so accepting of guns given that experience. Perhaps this is due to your young age at the time it happened. As for me, I am fed up with gun violence, and that DOESN'T make me narrow-minded. The rest of the world thinks we are freakin' nuts for tolerating so much violence. I am inclined to agree.

you missed the point completely. it's still a ****ing city. and for your information, it's not homogeneous. i'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but a city is a city. oh and since you have most likely never been to toledo, it's a fairly poor city. a lot of it is engulfed in slums, the downtown area is surprisingly violent. i only lived 1.2 miles from downtown, and i saw a lot of violence in my own neighborhood. i've personally seen stabbings and gun shootings on my old street.

and granny is disrespectful. you're wrong about me not caring or whatever. i was the closest grandchild she had, and she was one of my favorite people. i've thought about violence and all this so many times. i know it's the people behind the guns so i get angry at them, not the weapons. ever since she died, my grandpa and i have been closer. i spent most of my time in ohio with him and i went to church with him 3 times.

as far as gun control, guns shouldn't be banned. registry should be more regulated. imports on guns should be taxed more. guns should cost more. but guns should NOT be banned.

and sure, i don't need a gun. i can just throw a stick at the charging buffalos when i'm trying to fix fence posts for my step dad.

[TDurden]

I never suggested we are a society based off of "survival of the fittest". You introduced that idea to the argument, not I.

Motor vehicles don't just kill the ozone, they kill more people than firearms do.

Driving is a privilege, you need to take a test before you're given a license.
I proposed before in past arguments that I wouldn't mind mandatory tests and training before issuing of firearms. In fact, that makes a shit load more sense to me anyway. It couldn't be federally controlled however, as that would defeat the point of "the right to bear arms", which I believe in. Even if monitored by the state, I would still be nervous.

In any case, regardless, I will always believe in a right to bear arms.

Why don't you just lead by example and...not own a gun?

You alluded to as much when you said this :Since when did evolution favor those who "played fair"?

But cars serve a purpose that doesn't involve killing: transportation. They aren't meant to kill. The only purpose of firearms is to cause harm, they serve no constructive purpose. And please don't say 'target shooting' cause that's a load of bull.

Wait. So you're saying you'd support gun training and tests but it couldn't be federally regulated and state regulation would be iffy? You're not making any sense. If anything should have regulations it should be guns. Not screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater doesn't interfere with freedom of speech, so how're you going to argue that mandatory safety training interferes with gun freedoms?

And the self defense thing? Bullshit. People learn martial arts so that they can defend themselves in a fist fight. Are you saying that you plan on working around town with a 9mm so that you can shoot someone who wants to brawl? You'd likely seriously injure them in a way that martial arts wouldn't and there's a nice chance that you would kill them.

And I do lead by example, I don't own any projectile weapons other than Nerf.

Your arguments aren't making any sense and seemed to be hinged on barbaric , warmongering logic and extreme paranoia.

[TDurden]

as they say, it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

Unless you live in the ghetto, that argument holds no water.

[anachronistic]

You alluded to as much when you said this :Since when did evolution favor those who "played fair"?

But cars serve a purpose that doesn't involve killing: transportation. They aren't meant to kill. The only purpose of firearms is to cause harm, they serve no constructive purpose. And please don't say 'target shooting' cause that's a load of bull.

Wait. So you're saying you'd support gun training and tests but it couldn't be federally regulated and state regulation would be iffy? You're not making any sense. If anything should have regulations it should be guns. Not screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater doesn't interfere with freedom of speech, so how're you going to argue that mandatory safety training interferes with gun freedoms?

And the self defense thing? Bullshit. People learn martial arts so that they can defend themselves in a fist fight. Are you saying that you plan on working around town with a 9mm so that you can shoot someone who wants to brawl? You'd likely seriously injure them in a way that martial arts wouldn't and there's a nice chance that you would kill them.

And I do lead by example, I don't own any projectile weapons other than Nerf.

Your arguments aren't making any sense and seemed to be hinged on barbaric , warmongering logic and extreme paranoia.

i actually prefer using the rapier. i'm an intermediate in fencing.

guns can be used for hunting, and are collected by many.

what do you do with people who are physically incapable of studying the arts of the martial?

[vashti]

you missed the point completely. it's still a ****ing city. and for your information, it's not homogeneous. i'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but a city is a city. oh and since you have most likely never been to toledo, it's a fairly poor city. a lot of it is engulfed in slums, the downtown area is surprisingly violent. i only lived 1.2 miles from downtown, and i saw a lot of violence in my own neighborhood. i've personally seen stabbings and gun shootings on my old street.

and granny is disrespectful. you're wrong about me not caring or whatever. i was the closest grandchild she had, and she was one of my favorite people. i've thought about violence and all this so many times. i know it's the people behind the guns so i get angry at them, not the weapons. ever since she died, my grandpa and i have been closer. i spent most of my time in ohio with him and i went to church with him 3 times.

as far as gun control, guns shouldn't be banned. registry should be more regulated. imports on guns should be taxed more. guns should cost more. but guns should NOT be banned.

and sure, i don't need a gun. i can just throw a stick at the charging buffalos when i'm trying to fix fence posts for my step dad.

Yeah, whatever. I am not gonna try to convince you that Toledo isn't quite like a big city or that it isn't as culturally diverse. You can look up the stats for yourself, and yes, I know Toledo is a shit-hole.

I meant no disrespect by calling your Grandmother "granny", but if you choose to interpret it that way, that is on you.

If you read a little more closely, you will notice I didn't say I advocated an outright ban on all firearms. Your bison-shooting would still be allowed so long as you used a rifle.

[vashti]

And the self defense thing? Bullshit. .

What about buffalo? How would you defend yourself from a buffalo?

[anachronistic]

Yeah, whatever. I am not gonna try to convince you that Toledo isn't quite like a big city or that it isn't as culturally diverse. You can look up the stats for yourself, and yes, I know Toledo is a shit-hole.

I meant no disrespect by calling your Grandmother "granny", but if you choose to interpret it that way, that is on you.

If you read a little more closely, you will notice I didn't say I advocated an outright ban on all firearms. Your bison-shooting would still be allowed so long as you used a rifle.

have you ever tried to pound a post into the ground? if you have, you'd know that it's DANGEROUS to holster a rifle while doing so. when a buffalo is charging, you don't have enough time to run to the truck and grab a shotgun/rifle/what have you. it's also bad nature to lay a rifle on the ground or up against a car, or whatever else. and if you DO have to run, and climb up something to safety, so to speak, long guns make it more difficult/dangerous to do so.

[anachronistic]

What about buffalo? How would you defend yourself from a buffalo?

yea i wish you had the balls to go fix a ****ing fence around some buffalos. one charged our parked truck and it rolled 5 times and landed on the hood. nobody was in it, we watched the whole thing happen.

[Junket]

Your arguments aren't making any sense and seemed to be hinged on barbaric , warmongering logic and extreme paranoia.

Yeah, probably, as I've lost interest in this argument, considering, my opinion wins out by default.

Should we have the right to bear arms?

Maybe, maybe not.

Do we have the right to bear arms?

Yes.

[TDurden]

Yeah, probably, as I've lost interest in this argument, considering, my opinion wins out by default.

Should we have the right to bear arms?

Maybe, maybe not.

Do we have the right to bear arms?

Yes.

Can't argue with that

Touche, Vash

[Only-virgins]

Those who own firearms are only dangerous when they are quick to pull it. There were numerous times in my life(about one million) where I was being either pushed around, hit with a bat, or being attacked...now..this way it somehow ended with both of us alive...but I have no idea what would have happened if either of us had a gun. Most likely two lives would have been ruined.

[LoveTwist]

Been reading all about the terrible Virginia Tech University massacre and reading peoples responses to it and the following one is particularly thought provoking...

"Americans, in their isolation from Europe, are also isolated from the history of wars that shapes the culture of Europeans. We, as a society, did not experience the holocaust, the blitzkrieg, or the loss of sovereignty to a "foreign" government that France, Poland, Hungary and others experienced. We are not impacted on a daily basis by the strife in Ireland or the Middle East.

I don't know any of the victims or families of any of our school shootings, and while I am saddened I am not personally impacted in a way that would foster empathy. While European societies learned the evils of warfare and experienced the heartache of personal loss - we viewed from afar and did not gain a sense of societal responsibility. I believe this is behind our violent video games and movies; we have a sense of righteous redemption but no personal experience of loss.

The shooter was as American as any of us, having grown up far away from his ancestor's homeland. While he may have heard stories from his british ancestors, he did not share their personal experience. It is easier to "dispose" of others when you feel no connection to them, no sense of shared triumph over evil - that triumph is as engrained in the psyche of every European, but is a "foreign" concept to Americans. We are all loners - the sense of pride in America, is pride in being left alone, not that of being part of a community.

Even "9/11" could not create that community because we are just too big. While violent crime in NYC was almost non-existent for weeks following the attack, it did not affect the entire country and could not be sustained.

So we are arrogant, hedonistic, nihilistic... but we are also insulated, naive and spoiled - we are a nation of adolescents protected by our parents
overseas who carry the burdens of the wars of the world. As weapons progress and more countries obtain them, we may grow up very soon. Perhaps we'll stop killing ourselves when others start killing us."

Know these aren't my words but its a interesting view of things...

Its clear that Americans generally have a different view of guns and weapons than most countries, as its ingraided in the costitution that guns are a "right".

But other countries like the UK, which have much stricter gun laws and where people must first have a liscence before they're allowed to own a gun, have much lower rates of gun crime and incidents like the school shootings seen in America are much rarer events.

However, although sticter gun laws would help in time, its unlikely it would have much inpact initially. Theres just so many guns in America and its so easy to aquire them.

Also I think changing American gun laws would be such a major change to the system that most presidents will be too scared to go through with it. I hope one day someone is brave enough to stand up though and speak out fo change.

[Only-virgins]

Whocares anymore people? It doesn't matter..forget that shit. It is in the past right? just like all of you always say so.

[Gribble]

What the hell are you talking about, OV?

Are you comparing violent crime to the sex lives of women?