State of Arizona Passes Law to Check Immigration Status

[Lipp]

I think the bottom line here that many of the people here are forgetting is ANYONE from another country that is here that isn't a citizen is here ILLEGALLY!!

lol.........

[Junket]

I also want to say that I do think there is value in human craftsmanship. I like to build things, and sometimes do it for fun. When I go to my family's vacation island up in Ontario, we build everything ourselves. We built the sidewalks, the docks, even the cabins. We do it because it's fun, like a hobby. We live up there without electricity, even though it's an option to have it there, now, because we think that experience is valuable.

But I would never do those things for a living.

A vacation island.

...

You sir, live in a bubble of smug.

What I am saying is that when I settle down in a nice house, someday, I will want an expect it to have been built with the best available technology (which definitely won't be robots, yet), because I know it will be cheaper and higher in quality that way.

Cheaper is cheaper, through and through. If you want higher quality you gotta fork over the cash, and if you're forking over that kind of cash you're purchasing a niche service, a service that I guarantee only a skilled tradesman will be able to produce.

I'm curious Frasbee. Why do you always bring up Black people in your conversations, even when the conversations have little to nothing to do with us? I seriously think that if I tracked back through the majority of your topics I would be hard pressed to find some random convo where you didn't use Black people as an example and say something generally not nice in your example (whether you mean it or not). One might start to draw the conclusion that you are obsessed.

Got your attention didn't it? Maybe you even felt that gut reaction of shock, anger, resentment, or just a need to retaliate in defense.

Which would be good, because that's what I was was going for, although it was not for you, but for Wiggy. It was an easy way to get a negative response from just about anyone.

If my example had been something like, "Union workers are nothing but a bunch of pompous slugs that have single handedly ruined our economy.", the lot of you would wouldn't have even given it a second glance.

Although, a reaction to that statement would be very different were I in a construction forum.

BTW, I've had friends who have moved to New Orleans for teaching and volunteer work (not visited, but moved there) and they've told me stories about how horrible life is there but they've also told me stories about why they stay and how their work is worth while. They're not black. You can be a non-black person in New Orleans and not hate black people it seems.

I know those types. I'm surrounded by them.

The lot of them are naive, but given enough time down here, 2-4 years, they'll quickly realize the plight of this city, of this culture.

Most of the ones I've known have moved on, or are planning on moving on.

You see, the school boards have been burning through these young teachers, and Teach for America volunteers like they were M&M's. Many work 7 days a week, 14-16 hour days. This is easy because they're all young and most are unhitched. No children, no spouses, and low compensation. These schools don't worry about the turn over rate because there's a line out the door.

Many of the older teacher residents that have been out of work don't even give these positions a chance because they already know they're piss poor working conditions, in some of the most piss poor schools in the city.
Really it's comparable to the cheap labor contractors get out of illegals.

This is okay for these young teachers so long as they feel appreciated, feel a sense of worth. If they can't find any kind of fulfillment, or any progress, they'll move on.

I hope your friends are aware of compassion fatigue, it's the number one cause of volunteer casualties.

[Mish]

I think the bottom line here that many of the people here are forgetting is ANYONE from another country that is here that isn't a citizen is here ILLEGALLY!!

Damn it! If only I knew that^ last year when I was an illegal non citizen tourist in US, I would've done a lot more things illegally. Instead like a sucker I helped the US economy.

Those illegal non citizen tourists in US, I'll tell you. They'll be the death of everyone.

[Doc Durian]

I'll admit I'm being a contrary, just offering food for thought. It is not an opinion that Frasbee has negative views and makes negative statements about black people. It is a fact. Many of these are observations about the terrible place that he lives in. Some of them such as "Black people aren't human and won't get into the fictional heaven they believe in..." are not observations but simply negative things that he says and uses for an example of something. Do I think he believes in that statement? No, but maybe he does, I don't know.

I'm just pointing it out to Frasbee that he seems a bit obsessed. I say the same thing to my black relatives who harp on and on about how much they hate white people. A lot of the time they are simply making true observations about the world around them but they become obsessed with what they are saying.

BTW, I've had friends who have moved to New Orleans for teaching and volunteer work (not visited, but moved there) and they've told me stories about how horrible life is there but they've also told me stories about why they stay and how their work is worth while. They're not black. You can be a non-black person in New Orleans and not hate black people it seems.

I remember the black people when I was a small child, and then as a teen, and then as a twenty something, and then as a thirty something.

The cultural divides have been huge in the degrees.

That's not to say I didn't experience black or white hate as a small child or further along... but the overall sentiment these days, pop culture wise, seems to be more antagonistic..

Maybe it's me...

When Be-Boppers were supposed to be prevalent during the "Roof is on Fire" days of MTV, the only ghetto blasters I ever saw in my crowded multi-ethnic south Jersey development were on the shoulders of latino teeny boppers. All the whites and the blacks were either collecting Tops Cards, playing woodwinds in the marching band, carving bolo ties for the Boy Scouts or Explorers, or riding the first BMX bikes and trying to pull the ET wheelie in groups of 15 or more simultaneously down the street.

(except for Jamal and Hassan's mother. She hated me and told them they could play with me but to keep an eye on me because I was the devil. She also told them to not tell me that I was the devil. Heavy stuff to hear when 6 years old. I felt her urge to snuff me out every time she looked at me, but couldn't understand it at the time.But then again, the Italians 4 doors down who named their only child "J.J" had an issue with parents due to perceived employment position and economics...thusly, they were nice to me but absolutely wretched to my mom and dad... in a territorial keeping up with the Jones manner of speaking. )

The Argentinian women across the street lost her husband on his way to his lunch break, during the strife. It took her years to even find out if he was tortured to death or got the humanitarian shot to the head.

Chuck and Bernice (two afro-american retirees next door) treated us kids like their own grandchildren and used to give us frisbees and plastic coin purses (weird huh, we loved it). The Polish neighbour on the other side of the wall had a german shepherd which would snap your finger tips off should you insert them through the fence... although the neighbour tried to combat it.

We had hicks on our block from cornbread country, blacks, latinos, chinese, south americans, slaviks, pure blooded russians, vietnamese, thai's, a lady from South Africa and fleeing, italians... too many nationalities in fact to remember in one sitting or posting.

Most of the Blacks I knew in my twenties were mostly situated in abandoned holiday areas the old blues legends used to frequent north of Chicago once upon a time. Little villas bought up as homesteads in a place with few decent jobs in the modern days, unless one wanted to drive for an hour. There were new residents in my village, but most of them were young and looking for quick opportunities. Those in the dilapidated villa town had more character and principle, overall. Everybody in my village called the scrub area where BB King and Hooker used to play every summer as a village gone bad... and with the largest penitentiary in the area... but the friends and times I had there trumped over anything happening in my town or with anyone in the larger cities we used to find trouble in a few hours south.

There were plenty of latinos along that path too... and some kind and endearing families who would cook up the biggest storm for a guest, even if the guest was a regular guest hanging out with their sons and doing it tough, by choice or otherwise. I still remember being hand swatted by spatula and a 90 year old blind abuelita because we tried to quietly sneak a fresh tortilla out of her tupperware container, as she had the griddle going... and chuckling, "pancho villa, pancho villa, pancho villa".

The best homemade tamales I've ever had and the most welcome feeling ever...

Do you know what bothers me about this whole illegal business?

A good portion of the people I've known haven't been "legal"... they were merely human.

While I don't condone breaking major credible laws (versus most laws), I can see how illegal immigration gets many danders up. I also see where we as a nation have to put aside the nationalism long enough to recognize the persons and the people.

The North and South American Union has been in the playbook for a long time coming... there is no doubt that borders have been designed to melt by those wielding the reigns.

Alternately, I have to ask this simple question, "Should we remove the socialist component of the US, get back to our roots, and open the borders in order to let in those who want to come and work hard, versus those who want to milk, arrive... integrate... and move the nation in positive motion?"

My lover is South American and only beginning to understand the english language. One day, I want to bring her to the States.... but I have to ask... which of the States will recognize her accent, her colour, her nationality when being pulled over for a traffic violation? Will she have to carry "papers" wherever she goes like a second rate citizen? Will our children be detained walking down the street?

Arizona may well have the best intentions at heart... since the Federal government says one thing and does another..... but the States.... at what cost? Police state?

I couldn't subject her or our children to living in that.

Open hearts require open boundaries... legal or illegal, whatever that means.

Open hearts and handshakes also repel authoritarian mandates and edicts... thus driving business and prosperity.

This border facade and slew of agent provocateurs is sucking us into another Iraq war mentality... and look which entities won in that sly handed deal....

[Bo]

Well the point is that there are two sides to every story. Frankly, if people feel that having illegals here are a major personal threat to them and is a huge crisis well then by all means deport everyone back to their homelands....i mean EVERYONE. Let's not forget America is full of xenophobes and likes to pick on people who are easy targets.

[Bo]

And well if mexicans/latinos/hispanics didn't have spanish accents and were light skinned would we be dealing with the situation the same way?

[Doc Durian]

And well if mexicans/latinos/hispanics didn't have spanish accents and were light skinned would we be dealing with the situation the same way?

Especially if they shared Republic values fluently and weren't met at the border by socialists from either US political party mainstay...

[Bo]

What i'm trying to get at is not the technical because everyone could go back and forth all day debating the rights and wrongs, there is no definite right answer when we're dealing withthis kind of situation. What's underlying are the social, class, and race issues, that is what it's about, white privilege in America. There are tons of other illegal immigrants who come to the US but no one points the finger at them because we see mexicans/latinos/hispanics as the MOST different from us, therefore we WILL find anything and everything wrong about this particular social group and then make up laws while we're at it to make them look like low-class assholes trying to steal everyone's jobs. They didn't come here looking to harm anyone, each of them have their own story.

[Doc Durian]

I definitely agree with you.

[CAM]

Does "protecting what's yours" involve moving to a new country? People move here for a reason. If sovereignty is the most important thing to someone, they don't leave everything and move halfway around the globe and then pretend they brought their country with them.

Your comment is unclear to me.

Sovereignty means that a nation has legitimate boundaries and legitimate government. An immigrant who enters without the legal blessings of a nation's government is essentially challenging a nation's legitimacy. Just because someone wants to enter doesn't mean that he or she has right to, regardless of the fact that US businesses and private citizens essentially encourage the wrong-doing. A nation that chooses not to protect its sovereign status when challenged is essentially giving up on its own existence.

Hence my comment that what is going on (particularly the fact that Mexico, in the case, is passively watching illegal immigration occur) is a de facto challenge to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The irony is that in order to enter AZ, the immigrants cross land that was purchased under the Gadsen Agreement--lands that were sold by Mexico rather than subject to the aforementioned Treaty.

Yes, all very pedantic, which automatically means that it is illegitimate in the readers' eyes....

[Mish]

There's actually a very similar debate going on in Australia at the moment.

Yes, you'd be surprised. Australia, isolated by an unforgiving and cruel ocean still gets illegal immigrants escaping from their war torn countries in leaky boats. Some shake their heads at the debate over such a minuscule amount of people compared to other countries, but to summarize; these two points of view have become most dominant:

1. Apart from the arguments put forward here already in this thread there are additional fears of expanding and uncontrollable population growth, dilution of culture and identity and precedent for increased violations (the more people successfully cross the border the more encouragements it will give to the others). A rather new arrival to this is also encouragement of people smuggling as they often have the infrastructure already available that can achieve illegal infiltration. So from this perspective the government is crazy not to react to the increasing illegal immigration and something needs to be done on the border protection front immediately to at least begin to soften the blow.

2. Yet, looking at the exact same issue from the opposite perspective it's also hard not to take a completely opposite side in the debate. From the humanistic perspective the illegals are refugees escaping war torn countries (in many cases wars that we ourselves have created). In many cases they don't have any ability to immigrate via legal means because they either get shot on sight attempting or there's no infrastructure available for them to take that option. Denying them their only chance to escape a brutal environment is a cruelty that defines our own values and throws in our face all hypocrisies of who we think we are. This is also reinforced by side effects of discrimination and racial profiling (for instance the ability for police to stop people at random based on skin colour is a slippery slope towards corruption). Extreme measures towards border protection also polarize the population and create violent internal conflict.

I think this is a debate that desperately needs both voices to be heard with the extremes (like xenophobia) discouraged. Only somewhere in between, where all sides reach a consensus a moderate and workable solution can be found and enacted.

[SirWagginston]

A vacation island.

...

You sir, live in a bubble of smug.

Right, everyone who owns a vacation island is smug, even if their island is small and in the remote wilderness of Ontario, making it affordable to any middle class family.

You could get one if you wanted. Would that make you smug?

[Gigabitch]

Alternately, I have to ask this simple question, "Should we remove the socialist component of the US, get back to our roots, and open the borders in order to let in those who want to come and work hard, versus those who want to milk, arrive... integrate... and move the nation in positive motion?"

You mean like back when we wanted as many Europeans to move here as possible so we could have their assistance in slaughtering all of the natives and settling on their land? Yeah, those good old days. The borders were NEVER open to everyone who wanted to come, not equally. We imported scads of Chinese in the 1800's to build railroads and treated them like slaves, not like citizens. Kind of like Mexicans today.

Your comment is unclear to me.

Sovereignty means that a nation has legitimate boundaries and legitimate government. An immigrant who enters without the legal blessings of a nation's government is essentially challenging a nation's legitimacy. Just because someone wants to enter doesn't mean that he or she has right to, regardless of the fact that US businesses and private citizens essentially encourage the wrong-doing. A nation that chooses not to protect its sovereign status when challenged is essentially giving up on its own existence.

Hence my comment that what is going on (particularly the fact that Mexico, in the case, is passively watching illegal immigration occur) is a de facto challenge to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The irony is that in order to enter AZ, the immigrants cross land that was purchased under the Gadsen Agreement--lands that were sold by Mexico rather than subject to the aforementioned Treaty.

Yes, all very pedantic, which automatically means that it is illegitimate in the readers' eyes....

I think I misunderstood your post- were you not pointing out that the Cuban man who offended me so was protecting his own by refusing to assimilate?

From the humanistic perspective the illegals are refugees escaping war torn countries (in many cases wars that we ourselves have created). In many cases they don't have any ability to immigrate via legal means because they either get shot on sight attempting or there's no infrastructure available for them to take that option. Denying them their only chance to escape a brutal environment is a cruelty that defines our own values and throws in our face all hypocrisies of who we think we are. This is also reinforced by side effects of discrimination and racial profiling (for instance the ability for police to stop people at random based on skin colour is a slippery slope towards corruption). Extreme measures towards border protection also polarize the population and create violent internal conflict.

Let 'em in! Just make it legal.

[Gigabitch]

They did to the Native Americans what they had been doing to eachother for ages and what Native Americans had been doing to eachother for ages

WE had nothing to do with that. The idea of ancestral sin is retarded

That's not White Guilt talking, DM; I don't have any of that. I'm responding to Doc's waxing nostalgic about The America That Was Before The Liberals Took Over.

[Junket]

Right, everyone who owns a vacation island is smug, even if their island is small and in the remote wilderness of Ontario, making it affordable to any middle class family.

You could get one if you wanted. Would that make you smug?

Yeah, probably.