Why ladies, why?... Is logic not a strong suit for many of you?

[Petit Papillon]

Annoying, not willing to have sex wife ... What else would you like to have ? You can choose only from "Imperfections assortment"

[Incognito]

your sweeping generalization is a fallacy of logic.

Any generalization is a logical fallacy. Notice that the title says "many" and not all, so it isn't a "sweeping generalization". I knew you'd find some reason to gripe about this thread. It seems that you didn't consider the full meaning of the title and simply took offense because I didn't sugar coat the subject matter. Are you my wife posting in disguise?

[Incognito]

Annoying, not willing to have sex wife ... What else would you like to have ? You can choose only from "Imperfections assortment"

LOL

10 char

[JadenMia]

I dont have too many answers for you to work with, but i must say, that we all know that in reality, women are emotional thinkers, men logical thinkers. Right? That doesnt count for every man and woman, but its how it usually goes for most cases.

As a woman, i can unfortunately say, most of my decisions come from an emotional level. Yeah, i hate it. I dont always think logically, in which case, yes, logic is not a strong suit for me in a relationship. I dont find it insulting that is just how i work. Everything is how it feels, what it means to me blah blah. Obviously, you get what im talking about given your post about your wife. And reading this, your wife sounds a little picky, nice way to put it. Maybe she is a little over emotional? Or maybe she is just trying to get under your skin.

With me, i understand that men think completely different and dont always understand why we do things the way we do, but in my relationships i figured compromise is the best policy for this. I mean, if we are stubborn to the point of not accepting how one another works, then wtf is the point? It would be like constantly bashing heads. I think the key is to find someone who you can compromise with, someone who can work with you on the two different levels we are on.

I just wanted to comment on #3, This i can understand a tad bit. Although, yes it is not logical. It isnt fairytale land. But as a woman, we like to feel that the man that loves us, would do anything in the world to make us happy. We like to feel special, like the most important person in the world etc.. Although i would not want to be treated like a possession, which many men do along with love that i have been with. I would like to be treated a little differently than anyone else. Its stupid and im sure MOST women know its stupid we feel this way, but we do like to think we are above and more important than any other person in their mans life. But, even though i feel this way, i would not seriously expect that to happen. It is a little farfetched that your wife would expect you to agree to something before even knowing what it was? lol That seems a little overboard.
As for number #4, would you mind going into why thats the case? I would like to hear it?

I cannot enlighten you any, on how my emotions completely trump logic. It shouldnt. And doesnt in a lot of cases as im not stupid. lol But sometimes just hearing his side of the story, trying to understand where he is coming from helps me understand and try to compromise a lot better.
Do you and your wife have any communication at all? Or do you completely bash heads all the time trying to figure what each other mean?

[DannyH]

When your in fight and get angry you do anything to win. Which involves talking louder, bringing up old drama, logic goes out the window for everybody not just women. Sounds like you got in a heated fight. When people are not angry that is when logic comes in to play.

[vashti]

I dont have too many answers for you to work with, but i must say, that we all know that in reality, women are emotional thinkers, men logical thinkers. Right?

You obviously haven't experienced an older man. In my experience, YOUNG women are more prone to being emotional, and young men more logical. Later on, the roles are reversed.

[JadenMia]

You obviously haven't experienced an older man. In my experience, YOUNG women are more prone to being emotional, and young men more logical. Later on, the roles are reversed.

Yeah the oldest iv been with is 28. I would like to see the roles reversed! For a man to understand how things are so emotional for a woman.. or younger woman whatever, that would be awesome.

[IndiReloaded]

Maybe someone can [actually] enlighten me as to how emotion trumps logic?

Alright I'll take a stab at this.

Emotion doesn't trump logic but, depending on how it aligns with the particular issue, it can work either for or against a solution. The trick is to be intelligent enough to recognize which way its going. I'll try to give an example:

Being a witness to a horrific accident. Some people might be very scared and will run. Some might be very shocked and freeze. The rational response will depend on the situation. In the first case (running), the emotional response might also happen to be the correct one (if say, there was a danger to remaining). The running is certainly not reason-driven, but most people won't notice that is the case because the rational response *happens* to be congruent with the emotion. I hope this makes sense.

In the second case (freezing), it may be that the rational response is to stay and help. But, until the emotional, hormonal flux is dealt with, the rational response can't happen. Maybe this involves someone less shocked to reassure the emotionally frozen one. Maybe it requires a stronger stimulus (like a slap to the face or a bucket of cold water), or distracting them with a drink. You get the idea. But the point is, because the emotional response isn't aligned with the rational response, you notice a problem. And for the large majority of people, the emotional flux needs dealing with FIRST before they can think. In this sense, emotion trumps logic. If you insist on plowing forward rationally w/o addressing the emotion, you can end up with a conflict.

Its an evolutionary thing. Fight or flight is much older than our relatively new capacity for reason. In general, and I've said this before, males are better at suppressing their emotional response b/c, historically, if it got out of control someone usually died. There are exceptions, some women are very logical but most aren't when it comes to a test of emotions vs. logic. I don't think that's a bad thing either, given women are the biologic nurturers. Its just a different way of operating.

[HeartIsAching]

Ok, now that I'm permanently branded a sexist no matter what I say or do after this I'll get on with my post...

I learned the following from my wife today:

1. If I say her >>>VIEW<<< is narrow minded and illogical it is tantamount to me calling >>>HER<<< stupid.
2. If she tells me to "don't say anything else" and to "leave her alone" that it ISN'T the same as saying shut up, despite the above mentioned [enlightenment] that I received.
3. Women want to be treated like everyone else (and not like a possession), but when treated like everyone else lament that they should be treated differently from everyone else.
4. 'Feelings' rule the day. No matter what day, or the time of day.
5. When logical argument angles are nonexistent play the victim card.

In regards to enlightenment #1, she hates the fact that I won't promise to do something before I know what I'm promising to do. She'll say "Hey, can you do something for me?" and then wait for an answer. I reserve the right to say "no" to anyone for anything, but once I say "yes" I'll do my damnedest to get it done. She actually got pissed yesterday, not because she asked me if I'd do something and I asked her what it was, but because it came up in discussion. She got pissy, so I left the house for a few hours. When I came back I got the expected ignore-fest. Didn't hear from her at work the following day (today), so I texted her and laid out my whole view again. I added that her viewpoint was narrow minded and illogical. I did so because she feels that simply because she's my wife that I am supposed to say "oh yeah, I'll do it... what do you need?". That won't happen, ever. The simple solution is to cut to the chase and ask me what you want done instead of playing games by asking me if I'll simply agree to do [something] before knowing details.

#2 is plain and simple.

#3 is sort of outlined in #1 in that I have that rule for everyone, but she feels like she should be an exception. Bottom line is that she walks on two legs and breathes air like every other human being I know, so why would I bend such a basic and logical rule?

#4 I won't be able to explain as well because I'd have to lay out the whole setting and argument along with supporting past events. It should suffice to say that apparently in the female universe 1+1=3... if you feel that it should.

#5 I never get tired of that one because I always always always see it coming. She did it today as a matter of fact. As soon as she realized that her feelings don't hold much weight against logic she shifted gears and spouted "Funny how it is ALL my fault....". The funny thing is that most of our arguments start because she feels (there goes that word again) a certain way about something and runs with it.

Maybe someone can [actually] enlighten me as to how emotion trumps logic?

Saying her "view" is narrow minded is a semantic hidey-hole. It IS tantamount to saying she's stupid. There are better ways to convey what you mean without insults.

Her saying "Don't say anything else" or "Leave me alone" is her being unwilling to lose an argument. It's also emotional abuse.

Women don't really want to be treated the same as men. It'd be annoying as hell to them. My best friend (besides my wife) answers the phone with "What's up, asshole?" when I call, or something similiar, would your wife want that? What they really want is to have the same rights, responsibilities and respect that men get - fair enough. SOME of them have double standards, just as some men do. You can call your wife on her double standards whenever they appear, without being confrontational.

Your feelings can also rule the day, at least as far as your wife goes. When she says something that makes you angry, stop and think: "What am I really feeling? Am I feeling unimportant? Sad? Lonely? Unappreciated?" etc. There's always another emotion that's masked by anger - that's what men are socialized to do when something makes us uncomfortable - men typically exist in two states, happy or angry. Anger is nearly always fear in disguise.

Shifting gears and playing the victim is a typical abusive behavior. If you can't get your way, if you can't force your partner to do what you want one way, shift gears. The best way to fight this is to insist on staying on topic. "I didn't say that, lets stay on topic for now." A few repetitions of that can do wonders.

When your wife asks you to do something without telling you what it is, it's a trust test. She's seeing if you'll just trust that she won't ask something unreasonable, and you're refusing to trust. That's why she gets angry. Not because what she wants you to do is so important, but because you won't just trust her. It IS a mind-game, but one you can refuse to play simply by agreeing - and if she DOES ask something that's unreasonable or difficult/impossible for you to do, you can just say so.

You leaving the house AND her "ignore fest" are both abusive behaviors. They're a form of behavior called Isolation, in which you "punish" the other by depriving them of your company, either by physically leaving or by refusing to speak. There IS a technique called a Time Out that can be useful in these cases. Discuss what a time-out is BEFORE you need to use one. Set a time limit, and OBEY the time limit. I typically use an hour. I'll say "I'm taking a time out" and go. She knows not to interfere, that I need some cool-down time, and she also knows that I'll be back in one hour, no more and no less, and we can discuss it (or not, at her discretion) when I return.

BTW, logic has never proved anything. It's a useful tool, but the only thing ever proved for certain by logic is that Solipsism is the only possibly true philosophy in the universe... but we know that to not be true, we take it as a matter of faith. You exist, others exist, the world was there before you arrived and it'll be there when you depart.

I'm willing to discuss this in depth with you if you'd care to. If so, you can PM me contact info (yahoo ID, phone number, email address whatever) and set a time for it. It sounds to me as if you could use some tools that I've been exposed to and have been using for a while.

[asdfg789]

^^ I agree with a lot of what HIA is saying for this case

[DannyH]

"Your feelings can also rule the day, at least as far as your wife goes. When she says something that makes you angry, stop and think: "What am I really feeling? Am I feeling unimportant? Sad? Lonely? Unappreciated?" etc. There's always another emotion that's masked by anger - that's what men are socialized to do when something makes us uncomfortable - men typically exist in two states, happy or angry. Anger is nearly always fear in disguise."

It could never be from frustration or from a threatening tone. no no its always fear. The complete opposite of the fight response(aka anger) Makes sense really. Just because fear and anger are alike does not even justify that they are one in the same. It is the right way to handle is by stepping back and thinking about. (oh no that makes no sense that would be logic.)

"Shifting gears and playing the victim is a typical abusive behavior. If you can't get your way, if you can't force your partner to do what you want one way, shift gears. The best way to fight this is to insist on staying on topic. "I didn't say that, lets stay on topic for now." A few repetitions of that can do wonders."

It's also a natural defense. Trying to diffuse the situation and get what you want. Throwing around the word abuse too soon and too quick is not even right. If done in the wrong way yes it can be abuse but it also doesn't mean it will be abuse everytime.

"When your wife asks you to do something without telling you what it is, it's a trust test. She's seeing if you'll just trust that she won't ask something unreasonable, and you're refusing to trust. That's why she gets angry. Not because what she wants you to do is so important, but because you won't just trust her. It IS a mind-game, but one you can refuse to play simply by agreeing - and if she DOES ask something that's unreasonable or difficult/impossible for you to do, you can just say so."

Ok I'll so give you that

You leaving the house AND her "ignore fest" are both abusive behaviors. They're a form of behavior called Isolation, in which you "punish" the other by depriving them of your company, either by physically leaving or by refusing to speak. There IS a technique called a Time Out that can be useful in these cases. Discuss what a time-out is BEFORE you need to use one. Set a time limit, and OBEY the time limit. I typically use an hour. I'll say "I'm taking a time out" and go. She knows not to interfere, that I need some cool-down time, and she also knows that I'll be back in one hour, no more and no less, and we can discuss it (or not, at her discretion) when I return."

again with the quick to draw in abuse. One of the ways to cope with anger is to withdraw from the source that is making you angry. That isn't abuse. You make it sound like when you leave your abusing your SO. Ok if you work on your wife's day off that's now abuse? Yeah there is a right way and wrong way to do things but when your in self-defense mode when you are angry and dealing with somebody else when your angry talking about how long your gonna be away from each other isn't going to anything besides make the fight longer and make each other hold more resentment for one another. You do that sort of talking when its an argument before you get angry.

"BTW, logic has never proved anything. It's a useful tool, but the only thing ever proved for certain by logic is that Solipsism is the only possibly true philosophy in the universe... but we know that to not be true, we take it as a matter of faith. You exist, others exist, the world was there before you arrived and it'll be there when you depart."

Actually logic has proved pretty much everything.

Man you take the self help book stuff out of context it can make anybody look like an abusive jackass

[HeartIsAching]

"Your feelings can also rule the day, at least as far as your wife goes. When she says something that makes you angry, stop and think: "What am I really feeling? Am I feeling unimportant? Sad? Lonely? Unappreciated?" etc. There's always another emotion that's masked by anger - that's what men are socialized to do when something makes us uncomfortable - men typically exist in two states, happy or angry. Anger is nearly always fear in disguise."

It could never be from frustration or from a threatening tone. no no its always fear. The complete opposite of the fight response(aka anger) Makes sense really. Just because fear and anger are alike does not even justify that they are one in the same. It is the right way to handle is by stepping back and thinking about. (oh no that makes no sense that would be logic.)

"Shifting gears and playing the victim is a typical abusive behavior. If you can't get your way, if you can't force your partner to do what you want one way, shift gears. The best way to fight this is to insist on staying on topic. "I didn't say that, lets stay on topic for now." A few repetitions of that can do wonders."

It's also a natural defense. Trying to diffuse the situation and get what you want. Throwing around the word abuse too soon and too quick is not even right. If done in the wrong way yes it can be abuse but it also doesn't mean it will be abuse everytime.

"When your wife asks you to do something without telling you what it is, it's a trust test. She's seeing if you'll just trust that she won't ask something unreasonable, and you're refusing to trust. That's why she gets angry. Not because what she wants you to do is so important, but because you won't just trust her. It IS a mind-game, but one you can refuse to play simply by agreeing - and if she DOES ask something that's unreasonable or difficult/impossible for you to do, you can just say so."

Ok I'll so give you that

You leaving the house AND her "ignore fest" are both abusive behaviors. They're a form of behavior called Isolation, in which you "punish" the other by depriving them of your company, either by physically leaving or by refusing to speak. There IS a technique called a Time Out that can be useful in these cases. Discuss what a time-out is BEFORE you need to use one. Set a time limit, and OBEY the time limit. I typically use an hour. I'll say "I'm taking a time out" and go. She knows not to interfere, that I need some cool-down time, and she also knows that I'll be back in one hour, no more and no less, and we can discuss it (or not, at her discretion) when I return."

again with the quick to draw in abuse. One of the ways to cope with anger is to withdraw from the source that is making you angry. That isn't abuse. You make it sound like when you leave your abusing your SO. Ok if you work on your wife's day off that's now abuse? Yeah there is a right way and wrong way to do things but when your in self-defense mode when you are angry and dealing with somebody else when your angry talking about how long your gonna be away from each other isn't going to anything besides make the fight longer and make each other hold more resentment for one another. You do that sort of talking when its an argument before you get angry.

"BTW, logic has never proved anything. It's a useful tool, but the only thing ever proved for certain by logic is that Solipsism is the only possibly true philosophy in the universe... but we know that to not be true, we take it as a matter of faith. You exist, others exist, the world was there before you arrived and it'll be there when you depart."

Actually logic has proved pretty much everything.

Man you take the self help book stuff out of context it can make anybody look like an abusive jackass

Most people display abusive behaviors on a daily basis. That doesn't mean they're right, it just means we can be better. It doesn't even mean that most of their behaviors are abusive, but many are. What are you so defensive about?

[DannyH]

Most people display abusive behaviors on a daily basis. That doesn't mean they're right, it just means we can be better. It doesn't even mean that most of their behaviors are abusive, but many are. What are you so defensive about?

True but it doesn't make normal human responses wrong.
He was in an passionate emotional charged argument with his wife where emotions surpassed logic(where we can be better) he did the natural response for handling a situation leaving before it got worse. When you can't talk to somebody who is in an emotional charged state you cannot negotiate with them. He comes here to vent. Still angry and defensive then you slap on self help stuff for people in arguments who are still in control of their emotions. Which isn't make him all feel all that better. He is just gonna hold more resentment and anger towards his wife.

Your view on fear and anger also gets me as well. fear and anger are two opposing forces for self preservation. Which makes it really less common that fear is a motivator for anger. It does happen sometimes that fear can lead to anger but if that's the case it will most likely lead to hate first and that is a whole nother ball game. If you give good advice to the wrong person in the wrong setting it can be like giving a child a loaded gun. I think you gave really good advice but at the wrong time. which is why I am "defensive"

[HeartIsAching]

True but it doesn't make normal human responses wrong.
He was in an passionate emotional charged argument with his wife where emotions surpassed logic(where we can be better) he did the natural response for handling a situation leaving before it got worse. When you can't talk to somebody who is in an emotional charged state you cannot negotiate with them. He comes here to vent. Still angry and defensive then you slap on self help stuff for people in arguments who are still in control of their emotions. Which isn't make him all feel all that better. He is just gonna hold more resentment and anger towards his wife.

Your view on fear and anger also gets me as well. fear and anger are two opposing forces for self preservation. Which makes it really less common that fear is a motivator for anger. It does happen sometimes that fear can lead to anger but if that's the case it will most likely lead to hate first and that is a whole nother ball game. If you give good advice to the wrong person in the wrong setting it can be like giving a child a loaded gun. I think you gave really good advice but at the wrong time. which is why I am "defensive"

You're entitled to your wrong opinion. I respect that fact.

[DannyH]

You're entitled to your opinion(regardless of how wrong I think they are). I respect that fact.

Anger is a natural and mostly automatic response to pain of one form or another (physical or emotional). Anger can occur when people don't feel well, feel rejected, feel threatened, or experience some loss. The type of pain does not matter; the important thing is that the pain experienced is unpleasant. Because anger never occurs in isolation but rather is necessarily preceded by pain feelings, it is often characterized as a 'secondhand' emotion.

A better understanding of anger.

taken from here. [url]http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5804&cn=116[/url]

I like you though you make me step back and look outside the box