Do guys have to make the first move?

[MVPlaya]

My god, what can I say...

First off, all the advice I've read here so far is WRONG. I mean, okay, you may dig that sentimental crap you've been fed by Hollywood romance movies and Avril Lavigne songs but what you're doing is the reason you're constantly confused. So, here's the breakdown:

YES!!! As a guy you want to make the first move... face it, how often is a chick going to approach you? Some of the most succesful men I know don't have chicks jump after 'em all the time. Think about it... what if that "perfect chick" that you oh, so, want is there and she doesn't notice you... are you going to sitback and wait for her to come to you? Hell no, you're a man and you approach. Making the first move is key. If you sit there and give small hints and wait for her to make the move she is going to assume that you are a coward. You need to be balls up about it and make the first move.

Warning: Now, first move does not mean, "wow, you look beautiful today" or some crap like that. If you give the chick the impression that you already want her (before ever having truly built a relationship with her) you are clearly non-challenge. She already has you so what's the point. Face it, NICE GUYS DO FINISH LAST! So, instead, when you talk to her be confident... be a little cocky/funny, show her you ain't like every other guy who came before you and told her how unbelievably pretty she is and, instead, show that you have some dignity and that the chick HAS TO PROVE HERSELF TO YOU. Your goal is not to come across as a sorry loser like the guys on Average Joe who whine about "I just need affirmation, I feel so neglected." You need to show that you are just happy right now and that she ain't a big deal for you.

[jane]

wow... so what part of amy adivce was wrong?
just curious...

[MotU]

Hmmm....

Well, all I can say is that I LIKE being the aggressive one, and I like being the one making the moves. In fact, if a girl is too aggresive, I find it a little bit of a turn-off.

Once we're in a relationship, I enjoy it when the girl makes advances, but I still have to lead or I am no longer interested.

Also, I don't care how much of a feminist, or a modern-day girl she may be, if you really turn on a girl, she will want you to take the lead. This is simply nature's way, man in dominant / woman is submissive. And nature's way takes precedence above society's conditioning.

Instead of hoping for the girl to make the first move, learn to enjoy making the first move:

If a girl is interested in you, she will be delighted that you made the first move, and you will get what you want. If the girl is not interested, she will still feel good about herself that someone was interested in her. You may not get what you wanted, but at least you made someone feel better about themself. Either way, it's a win/win situation.

And forget all that nonsense about rejection. There is no such thing. If you're worried about rejection, it means your ego it too high or your self-esteem is too low.

MotU

[Atticus]

Dear MotU,

If natures way took precedent over societies conditioning, we shouldn't allow women to do anything but breastfeed. Men's upper body strength clearly labels them as the laborers, doesn't it? And forgot about romance and relationships altogether, having only one partner makes no sense from a biological perspective. All the men should go into areas and fight until there are only a handful left, then they should impregnate as many women as they can with their strong genes.

Well, I say society comes first. We don’t live as barbarians, although we may have in the past. We live as civilized people, NOT instinct driven wild animals. I don’t care what you say about old values and men being biologically driven to be dominant, I’ll stay true to my beliefs. It’s HURTFUL to say these things to young women who are, as Jane said, discovering those feelings within themselves that have been suppressed by men for so long. It’s HURTFUL to shy guys like me, who dream of a girl who will be dominant.

MVPlaya, I understand what you are saying, but you cannot simply go along with a system just because it is there. We may live in a world in which what you described is, for the most part, true, but we cannot lay back and allow such corruption to exist! At the very least, we must court and be courted how we want, not how THEY want. Or we can do more, and spread the word that we can change this sexist, unfair system, the way I hope to do someday. Playing silly games, like "hard to get" or acting confident to prove yourself, or simply laying down and following "nature’s way" will NOT help anyone. It only encourages the sexist oppressors who continue these beliefs.

I am proud to say that I have started a thread like this on every forum I regularly visit. I am proud to say that on these forums, there are always people who think there is hope. And I am proud to say that I won't give up spreading my message. They shy men of the world do not need to grow into something they were never meant for. The outgoing women of the world do NOT need to be subservient to their husbands. And one day, these freedoms will no longer be denied.

[jane]

Originally posted by Atticus

I am proud to say that I have started a thread like this on every forum I regularly visit. I am proud to say that on these forums, there are always people who think there is hope. And I am proud to say that I won't give up spreading my message. They shy men of the world do not need to grow into something they were never meant for. The outgoing women of the world do NOT need to be subservient to their husbands. And one day, these freedoms will no longer be denied.

Good Point! That's why we are humans with the right to think for oursleves. I honestly believe your exact statement. There is nothing wrong with being shy, as long as it's not because of your fear of women. Woman are human too. Your confidence may grow in time but forceing yourself into a "role" that doesn't fit you isn't the way to go about it.

[MVPlaya]

Originally posted by Atticus
MVPlaya, I understand what you are saying, but you cannot simply go along with a system just because it is there. We may live in a world in which what you described is, for the most part, true, but we cannot lay back and allow such corruption to exist! At the very least, we must court and be courted how we want, not how THEY want. Or we can do more, and spread the word that we can change this sexist, unfair system, the way I hope to do someday. Playing silly games, like "hard to get" or acting confident to prove yourself, or simply laying down and following "nature’s way" will NOT help anyone. It only encourages the sexist oppressors who continue these beliefs.

I am proud to say that I have started a thread like this on every forum I regularly visit. I am proud to say that on these forums, there are always people who think there is hope. And I am proud to say that I won't give up spreading my message. They shy men of the world do not need to grow into something they were never meant for. The outgoing women of the world do NOT need to be subservient to their husbands. And one day, these freedoms will no longer be denied.

Atticus, your post makes for great ideals and quotes but is, for most, inapplicable to reality. For one, do you really think shy guys want to stay shy for the rest of their lives? Be honest... you DON'T want to have the confidence to initiate a conversation with someone you don't know? C'mon! Reading your post I have the impression you have an EXTREMELY warped view of the Don Juans out there. I know guys who are naturally not outgoing but they are confident enough to approach women. Rather than looking at confidence as a strenght you relish in weakness. That is a very strange outlook. If your statements are genuine then you are the only guy of your kind. Confidence is good. Now, about you wanting a dominant partner... that is fully your personal choice. But I think for most males shyness is not something they consider an ideal, its something they unfortunately have and wish was different. About "the system... [which] encourages the sexist oppressors [to] continue these beliefs." Once again, you're view is wonderfully warped... maybe there are some crazed bastards out there who fit your stereotype but I guarantee you you're classifying 90% of the Don Juans out there wrongly. Also, "playing silly games" is not what DJism is about. For one, I don't "play hard to get," I am it. When I see women I don't fall head over heels or pray they walk up to me, I make the move if I want to and when i go out I decide for myself whether they live up to my expectations of a partner. You speak of a message of hope, but for most guys, this hope is unfounded.

Lets parametricize why: women fall into two categories (for purposes of this discussion), those who approach guys and those who don't. Now, women usually want to approach men but don't have the confidence to do so... therefore, those who approach tend to be more confident and their confidence, in turn, is based on the fact that they are more attractive to males. Now, these attractive senoritas do not approach shy guys 24/7, and when they do, I see shy guys do the dumbest thing and ruin whatever they had going for them. I do get approached by women and the reason for this is simple, they look at me as a catch and understand that they're going to have to work a little to be with me.

About your reply to MotU... he was not talking about women being completely subservient and being oppressed, he was talking about something much more simple, women do want a man who can take charge. This does not mean they want to relinquish all power to him, but they want someone who can handle the rough problems that may dog them through life and who can be a source of strength for those around him. Don Juans do not "suppress" these women... I don't walk up to a girl and say, "Lo! You must adore me and be subservient or never be content in life!" Women behave, for the most part, how they want. Of course there are some social constructs placed on the sexes, but, once again, this counts for males and females.

What I am trying to tell you is not that everyone should be an outgoing player, but rather than claiming we relish our shyness and really don't want to be confident we should make steps to improve on our weaknesses (and these weaknesses translate into all areas of life, not just dating). Your tastes in women are just that, your tastes in women. But confidence is something I feel all must aspire to have. Confidence is not being outgoing, it is not playing hard to get, it is not "suppressing" women. Confidence is having faith in who we are. For most men, shyness is a barrier to self-actualization, not an ideal they strive for.

[DuckyWucky]

Originally posted by MVPlaya
My god, what can I say...

First off, all the advice I've read here so far is WRONG...

Please "enlighten us."

Originally posted by MVPlaya

YES!! As a guy you want to make the first move... face it, how often is a chick going to approach you? Some of the most succesful men I know don't have chicks jump after 'em all the time...

Those, "successful guys" aren't as successful as you think. Ever heard of sexual tension? Know how to create it? If you knew anything about that you'd realize that the guy doesn't have to make the first move. By stating that you're contradicting yourself earlier by saying this...

Originally posted by MVPlayaI mean, okay, you may dig that sentimental crap you've been fed by Hollywood romance movies and Avril Lavigne songs...

Who's to say Hollywood doesn't make it so the guy makes the first kiss/move all the time? Isn't it so cliche and mainstream that the guy does everything first. Especially in this case make the first move?

Teasing, leaning back, and not taking advantage of offers from women lead to them wanting you MORE... not less. If a woman demonstrates that she's digging you, that's your cue to LEAN BACK. One of the best ways to make that feeling of ATTRACTION she's feeling go away instantly is to try to take advantage of it too soon.

Most men don't know that there are specific ways to build this sexual tension to the point where a woman will literally jump on you... and they don't know how the process works in the first place.

Women enjoy ANTICIPATION. Women like to think about things happening, imagine what they'd be like... and even sort of "tease themselves" with ideas of what might happen. Women really enjoy the PROCESS of being teased, when it's done in the right way.

Most guys don't know how to AMPLIFY the ATTRACTION, and INCREASE sexual tension. Most men become uncomfortable when there's tension, and they do things to RELEASE it instead of AMPLIFY it.

Men have an "On/Off" switch, and women have a "Volume Knob".

Men want gratification NOW, and can't grasp the concept that women have a more complex internal "Attraction Mechanism" that needs to be turned up gradually... and in specific ways.

So no. You don't ALWAYS as a guy have to make the first move. If you know what you're doing the girl will be the one to grab you and try and kiss you.

[Atticus]

Dear MVPlaya,

I was not saying that ALL men must aspire to shyness, I’m sorry you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that the men who are shy, the men who honestly don't feel like making the first move, the men who wish girls would make the first move, the men like me (I’m not a unique) SHOULDN'T be told that the solution to their problems is to "Grow some balls" so to speak and just make the first move. They shouldn't have to change their need for a girl to make the first move.

You also said that shy guys deep down long for the confidence required to make the first move. That they WISH they WERE dominant but they are too shy to be. Well, I have to disagree again. I do not long for the personality of an outgoing guy. I want a woman to be dominant, for the very reason you stated women want them to be dominant: I want a woman who is emotionally strong, who can help me through problems in life and be a source of strength for me. The fact that I am a man should not place me in the role of "protector". I should be free to make that choice for myself, and I think that if the shy guys of the world realized that girls might do this, they would want that life much more then the life of the outgoing guy.

The truth is, what you said about women is just plain wrong. You can't make ANY broad statement like that "All women want a guy who is a source of strength" and expect it to be true. In this day and age, our old 50's values are falling away fast. People don’t care about premarital sex, 10% of the population is gay (1 in 10 people), and now, I think we are ready to cross this sexist view too. Some straight women, like Jane (you ARE straight, right?) are NOT set on having a guy be the protector in the relationship. And I have met a few others like her, as well. In addition, I have met other guys like myself who want a protector girl. So, if you are right, how can we even exist?

The truth is, I am not really shy, although I feel shy deep inside. I can "swallow" it when I want to and be as outgoing as anyone else. Because of this I know that it is NOT a naturally outgoing personality that I seek. When I become outgoing with girls, it puts me in a position that I don’t really want to be in, the role of the impresser, and if we date, the protector, just like you said. That is how I know that what I want really is what I want, not just a result of the fact that I am too shy to date.

[MVPlaya]

Duckywucky,

First off... those succesful guys are MUCH more succesful than you'd imagine. We sarge bars and clubs together and I can SEE verifiably how much game these guys have. That aside, I did not contradict myself because I never mentioned sexual tension. And yes, I do know how to make sexual tension (after all, I'm a player), but for some guys learning to do that is not the first step they have to take. The first step is to become more confident... you have to learn walk before you can fly (Nietsche). Now, on "LEANING BACK," this is what we call Playing Hard to Get and I fully understand that. Too many guys jump all over an IOI and go right after the girl instead of being a challenge and making her want him more. Now, when I said approach the chick I mentioned the issue of non-challenge and how guys should always be playing hard to get. But that is not mutually exclusive with making an approach... have you ever heard of "neg-hits"? (If not, stay posted, they're coming soon to loveforum.net.) Now, I get women to approach me and the reason for this is fairly simple, I exude this confidence/charisma/fun that draws chicks to me and I know just how to push/pull to make sure they pursue me (so much more fun), but this is not something you can teach to a beginner. That;s later...

Atticus,

I never stated all guys want to be dominant... I stated guys wish they were confident... these things are not necessarily the same. By confident I mean they have the guts to make the first move (even if they decide not to). For too many nice guys, being nice/shy is not an issue wanting to be nice, its an issue of revealing who they truly are because others might not like it and, therefore, they cover it up in this grandiose nice act because they think women are so frail that if they ever stood up to them the women would break. This is not niceness... THIS is being fake. When I say confident I mean confident enough to act how you want to and if you want the girl to make your approach thats your deal... I don't see this being exclusive to being confident. Be confident but don't make the approach. Confidence applies to women making the approach to... I have seen cute women approach shy guys and the shy guys either were too clueless to pick up on what was going on or they screwed it up majorleague. Actually, on our forum we have this thread with 312 posts from now players on their earlier clueless moments (Title: Most Obvious Come-On That Was Missed).

About my thoughts about women being wrong... if a robber tried to rob you and your girlfriend on a date do you think she'd want you to run? Do you think if you had financial ruin she'd want you to cry and ask her to fix everything? Forget all this 50's 00's crap... researchers have studied this for a long time through cross-sectional and longitudinal studies. When they did a study at Duke last year, they had women go watch horror movies with. Now, the guys were in on the experiment and they had a task to complete. Half the guys had to be confident and unphased during the movie and the other half had to act a little scared. They tested this on between 400 and 600 randomly selected women. The results? Among women paired up with "weaker guys," 92% were turned off by this behavior while with the stonger guys. those who were asked to be confident and put their arms around the girl in a protective manner, 89% of women were attracted. Repeated variations of these experiments have been made, with roller-coaster rides, different "levels" of confidence at theaters, etc. etc. So, "The truth is, what you said about women is just plain wrong." I have experience and numbers which I have "made" myself in my life to back me up beyond the research which I cite for you. Of course some women want a different role for a man, but even with the 50/50 deal, the man has to be able to take care of the others, even if this is not the role the man or woman chose for him, simply put... what if the woman, the current protector, becomes terribly ill? What will happen to the family? Its important for the male to be able to protect.

Now, in your final paragraph you state you're not shy, you just don't like to be outgoing. That's fine... where did I say you had to be outgoing? I speak of confidence, not outgoing-ness. Sure, for me I play a little bit of the impressor when going out, but you can act confident in any environment without being "outgoing." One of my best friends is a major player and he hates to go out, he's not into partying/clubs/bars/being-loud-in-general... he's more laidback and does his own thing... but he still exudes this confidence, not because he fakes it, but because he has this, and this naturally attracts women.

So, not going out is one thing, but not having confidence is something completely different.

[sfalexi]

I figured I'd make a diagram. Let's say we have two guys, one who doesn't approach women, and one who does approach women. And two girls, one that approaches men, and one that doesn't approach men.

You pair up the man that approaches women with either of the girls, and he goes up and attempts to make contact. Then he finds out if the girl is attracted to him or not, and there's no guessing game of "I wonder if she likes me, I wonder if she doesn't." Whatever the outcome, he knows whether to go out on a date with her, or that he's been rejected and must try to find love somewhere else.

Now we take the guy that doesn't approach women. The only time he knows if the girl is attracted to him or not, is if she comes up to him. So (assuming that half the female population likes to approach guys) he only knows for sure half the time.

But, how much of the female population actually approaches guys they think are "cute"? I don't think it's half, so his chances drop dramatically.

I don't think you have to go out there and try to woo the girl off her feet and into your life the first time you see her, but be proactive. It's like the person who sits back and hopes to get a scholarship aside from the person who searches out the possible ones. More misses by the second, but more hits. The person who waits for a job to fall in their lap as opposed to the one filling out applications left and right. The person who expects to only do what he's told and advance in the company as opposed to the one who does everything he's expected AND THEN SOME.

The proactive people, who are out there, looking have a better chance of landing what they want. Yeah, a girl could come up to you in the mall and say, "Hey, how ya doin? What's your name?" but why wait for that? Make your own destiny, chart your own course and simply show that you're interested in the person. Don't sit back and hope that they KNOW you are.

To MVPlaya I know how confidence can be a good thing, but how can you really show confidence if you're not outgoing? I figure you can show confidence by striking up a conversation and being funny, and smiling and just showing that you're not bashful, but if you're not outgoing, how are people going to get the sense that you're confident?

Alexi

[Atticus]

Dear MVPlaya,

You can quote me statistics about girls wanting strong guys all you want, but first of all, consider two things:
(A) you shouldn't do something just because stastics say people want it done
(B) the world is changing.

The supression of feelings of dominance in women is changing. I think that it is not genetic, it is people like you TELLING these girls not to be dominant because no girls are. THEN you test them and see what they like.

But more important then any of that, me wanting a girl as a protector is living proof that there are people out there who dont fit your mold. And there will be more of them, once the sexist opression stops.

[MVPlaya]

Originally posted by Atticus
Dear MVPlaya,

You can quote me statistics about girls wanting strong guys all you want, but first of all, consider two things:
(A) you shouldn't do something just because stastics say people want it done
(B) the world is changing.

The supression of feelings of dominance in women is changing. I think that it is not genetic, it is people like you TELLING these girls not to be dominant because no girls are. THEN you test them and see what they like.

But more important then any of that, me wanting a girl as a protector is living proof that there are people out there who dont fit your mold. And there will be more of them, once the sexist opression stops.

First off, the statistics were there to back up a claim that you said was invalid. Second, the world is changing... well these statistics were from the late 90's so its not out of date and furthermore I'm sure that women's desire are as much a genetic feature as a social construct. Now, I NEVER said supressing women but you keep bringing it up, WHY? I don't understand... did the male who showed confidence oppress the girl? No! Does confidence oppress women? No! You keep mentioning some "sexist oppression" as if its this grand scheme by "The Man" to put down women. Women are never discouraged from making the move on a guy, their barrier is the same barrier men have: fear. If a woman wants to make a move, go ahead. You look at confidence as if its some form of evil... that's laughable. Also, you say you want a protective woman, great. Now where does that conflict with confidence... look, confidence is an attribute YOU have. Protective features in a woman is a characteristic YOU LOOK FOR. Where does that conflict?

This is retarded: "people like you TELLING these girls not to be dominant because no girls are." Where the hell do you get that? This is stupid, absolutely! When did I ever intimidate a girl so she would stop being dominant. I have NOTHING against dominant women and when I look for a girl to build a relationship with I want her to have a backbone and be confident. Your quote just shows to me how little you know about Don Juans.

So, continue screaming about the Sexist Oppression, but it just makes no sense. Confidence is a trait that both men and women look for. Only wife-beaters want inconfident women... confidence does not conflict with wanting the other side to be more dominant. Confidence is faith in yourself, not playing women and not there retarded reference to "sexist oppression of women." Is there sexism in society? Yes. But does confidence have ANYTHING to do with that? NO!

[sfalexi]

you shouldn't do something just because stastics say people want it done

He's just saying to gain confidence in yourself. Is that a bad thing?

But more important then any of that, me wanting a girl as a protector is living proof that there are people out there who dont fit your mold. And there will be more of them, once the sexist opression stops.

True. But in EVERY case there are people that don't fit. No matter what. There are even people out there that don't fit into a "male" or "female" category. Whether biologically or hormonally. What he's saying is for those people who sit back and wait for a dominant girl to come up to them, may want to change themselves and go out and search out for the girl. Obviously he can't force you to, but it's a suggestion. Sometimes you have to change yourself in order to be more attractive to women. I did. I got a new haircut, worked out for a bit, bought some new clothes, and finally became confident and believed that I was attractive and funny and smart and that girls want me! I can talk to any girl, anywhere, about anything. I didn't change my personality (I'm still a nice guy who is naive about relationships and plays clarinet and watches anime and spends all day downloading and uploading videos from my computer), but I just don't LOOK or ACT like the typical geek anymore. And by the time the girls find out the real me, they're hooked so they can't do anything but accept my geeky flaws!!!!!