Advice needed!

[vashti]

To each his own, I guess.

I do and will always find it disrespectful. It's something that I will never do because I wouldn't want someone doing it to me.

I love some of your opinion and views, vash, but then sometimes I think your views are shit.

Oh, well. Can't win 'em all. I used to think like you do, if it is any consolation.

[Cain]

Oh, well. Can't win 'em all. I used to think like you do, if it is any consolation.

I guess when I'm old and feeble my opinion will change too.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't think a girl has to be married for you to respect the fact that she's in a relationship and to not mess with her. Telling her that you're interested so she dumps her bf is a bullshit move imo.

Think what you want, but the socially accepted sign that someone is unavailable is that they are married, or an equivalent form of commitment. Like CB said before, if you want a 'guarantee' someone won't leave, then get married.

Other than that, its "All's fair in love & war". You don't have to like it, but to my knowledge, noone has ever won an 'alienation of affection' suit for someone they weren't married to.

I love some of your opinion and views, vash, but then sometimes I think your views are shit.

And I wish your mouth wasn't bigger than your IQ, sometimes Cain.

Feel free to interpret that in either direction.

[someonelse]

Marriage isn't even a guarantee people get divorced all the time.

[IndiReloaded]

Of course, hence the 'quotes'. However, most decent ppl understand that they must first get divorced before jumping ship.

Its the fact that a formal commitment has been made that makes the difference between something like marriage & other relationships.

(I feel like I need to put that in my sig, its coming up so much)

[Cain]

And I wish your mouth wasn't bigger than your IQ, sometimes Cain.

Feel free to interpret that in either direction.

My mouth is as big as I want it to be.

Regardless, I still think that messing with someone in a relationship is disrespectful. And you mention an equivalent form of commitment... what is that? Engagement?

[Mish]

Think what you want, but the socially accepted sign that someone is unavailable is that they are married, or an equivalent form of commitment. Like CB said before, if you want a 'guarantee' someone won't leave, then get married.

Other than that, its "All's fair in love & war". You don't have to like it, but to my knowledge, noone has ever won an 'alienation of affection' suit for someone they weren't married to.

I disagree with that.

I see commitment and loyalty as important mirrors into a person's character. If a person is unable to demonstrate these in a relationship, it's almost certain they won't be able to demonstarte these in marriage. Marriage is just a legal document that aims to prolong the break up. The perosnality and character ethic is within every single person be they married or not. Socially accepted signs are flawed. If a person lacks commitment to begin with they are an unaccpetable and an untrustworthy partner imo. Demonstarted failure in commitment in previous relationships is one of the first tools I use to weed out those who are not right for me by the way.

[IndiReloaded]

Define what you mean by 'commitment' in a non-marriage relationship.

I'm not talking about not cheating on a partner, BTW. Thats a no-brainer. But seriously, how much 'commitment' do you really expect from someone who isn't your spouse, or has that intention?

Cain: yes, I think that a couple who is engaged to be married is committed. A promise to marry is a kind of formal commitment to each other.

Being exclusive with someone in a relationship is not the same as being committed to someone, IMO. Exclusivity refers to the *present* state of a relationship & makes NO promise about the future. A commitment is a statement about the present AND future state of a relationship. And its not to be given lightly in every relationship you enter into, at least I certainly didn't when I was young & dating. Exclusive, yes, committed... not until I met my husband.

[Mish]

Define what you mean by 'commitment' in a non-marriage relationship.

I'm not talking about not cheating on a partner, BTW. Thats a no-brainer. But seriously, how much 'commitment' do you really expect from someone who isn't your spouse, or has that intention?

Well, I think in this instance the talk is about cheating. I.e. messing about with a person who is in a relationship. Imo if someone who is in the relationship starts inappropriate behaviour with another person (from passionate mouth to mouth kissing to having sex) I consider it demonstration of break of commitment and exclusivity to their partner.

Being exclusive with someone in a relationship is not the same as being committed to someone, IMO. Exclusivity refers to the *present* state of a relationship & makes NO promise about the future. A commitment is a statement about the present AND future state of a relationship. And its not to be given lightly in every relationship you enter into, at least I certainly didn't when I was young & dating. Exclusive, yes, committed... not until I met my husband.

I'm not understanding the difference you are describing between the two Indi. If you have a talk about exclusivity and decide to be exclusive with your partner it means that you are not exclusive today only, it means you are also exclusive tomorrow (the future) until relationship ends. This is not, "I'm exclusive until I find someone better", this is not exclusivity imo it's casual dating.

To me the REAL difference between exclusivity and commitment (and there is a very important one) is this:

Exclusivity means that you are not going to cheat on your partner for as long as the two of you are in a relationship. Once relationship ends, you are no longer bound by this exclusivity.

Commitment means you are not only not going to cheat on your partner for as long as the two of you are in the relationship, but you also commit yourself to being with them. A very important concept. Commitment means you dedicate yourself towards resolving issues in the relationship as they arise, you dedicate yourself towards settling difference, when your partner is sick you dedicate yourself to looking after them insted of abandoning them.

Ultimately I see commitment as a glue that binds two people in a relationship, legally closed by a paper contract called marriage before both start a family together.

This is what I mean when I keep on re-iterating the differences between dating and relationships, they are not one and the same. Dating does not require commitment or exclusivity while most (functional) relationships do. If someone does not want to be bound by commitment or exclusivity, then don't be in a relationship, that's my point of view.

[Mish]

So just to clarify the above. The way I see it yes there is a difference between exclusivity and commitment and commitment should not be given lightly. Exclusivity is a type of dedication that binds both partners to be exclusive to one another until relationship comes to an end. It's a bare minimum requirement to start a relationship imo. Commitment of the type I described is something that comes into play a little bit later into most relationships on its own. Because if one or both partners are not committed to solving their differences, solving issues as they arise and over all are not being committed to being together then their relationship will crumble and fall apart (when, is the matter of time), begging the question why were they in a relationship in the first place if they lacked commitment.

What I meant in the previous post when I said "Demonstrated failure in commitment in previous relationships is one of the first tools I use to weed out those who are not right for me" is basically this: My realization that those who fail to demonstrate the most basic form of commitment in a relationship by being exclusive to their partner are untrustworthy and unsuitable at least as far as I'm concerned.

If anyone wonders I clarified my point of view on this to each and every one girl I was with so we are on the same page before we started a relationship (in the past and the one in the present). If they disagreed I let them go.

[zoso]

I'm with Cain on this.
It would be a total dick move if you interfered with the relationship. Trust me, you do not want to be that guy. It's just disrespectful to both of them, and yes I mean it: both of them.

The fact that she doesn't talk much about him doesn't mean much. You guys have an exclusively "friends" relationship. She's in the wrong if she flirts with you a lot. And with the amount you two talk, if she were having issues with her man you'd probably hear about it. Women have a hard time not talking about stuff like that with those they are close with.

Maybe you could say something like, "You know, with the amount you flirt with me, it's almost like you want me to fall for you."
That may be a bit vague, but she'll probably get the hint that she should cut down on it.

Also:
I don't see why marriage should be the only case that you don't go after someone. Seriously. These people are in a relationship trying to make it work out. Even if you are a close friend with feelings, you really have no right to put strain on the relationship by telling her your feelings. And nobody has the right to try and break a relationship apart, even one without a ring.

[shh!]

Exclusivity is a type of dedication that binds both partners to be exclusive to one another until relationship comes to an end. .

I don't think anyone disagrees, but there is no obligation to continue in an exclusive relationship should a person change their mind. They are allowed to say "I think I'll be moving on now".

[Cain]

I still and never will think that it's okay to try and steal someone from a relationship that they are in. It's disrespectful. If the two aren't exclusive and in a committed relationship (I don't view marriage and engagement as the only way to commit to your partner. I'm not engaged or married to my gf but we're committed to each other), then fine... but only if it is casual dating. I'm using casual dating in terms of two people that like to hang out with each other and act like more than friends. Casual relationships aren't serious, so those are fair game. But before someone tries to steal another, they need to know whether the relationship is casual or serious.

[someonelse]

I think it's up to the individual person how they react to someone hitting on them or telling them how they feel. Personally if I'm told that someone liked me I'd simply say aww thanks but I'm with someone I love. And ofcoarse think in my head I've got the best of them all :p When it comes to commitment some take it more lightly then others. You have to ask yourself if she leaves her guy for you are you ok with her commitment to you?

[Mish]

I don't think anyone disagrees, but there is no obligation to continue in an exclusive relationship should a person change their mind. They are allowed to say "I think I'll be moving on now".

Definetly. That's why I said, exclusivity is dedication until the relationship ends. The person can do what they like after they are no longer bound by it. But while they are, they better not break their exclusivity to their partner or else be seen as untrustworthy. That's why I always suggest not to mess with people in relationships.