Why ladies, why?... Is logic not a strong suit for many of you?

[misombra]

I'm on team dannyh. I know how important it is to stay away from labels as much as possible. The anger and resentment ever present in this relationship is immense and overwhelming. Communication has broken down. This marriage is over. The only people they're abusing are themselves.

I think when she says "leave me alone" I believe she wishes you would just disappear. She doesn't see the point in arguing with her because you probably do believe you are superior in knowledge and logic.

[asdfg789]

He comes here to vent. Still angry and defensive then you slap on self help stuff for people in arguments who are still in control of their emotions. Which isn't make him all feel all that better. He is just gonna hold more resentment and anger towards his wife.

Incognito is entitled to vent. We are also entitled to suggest how he could have handled the situation better. We have all heard the bad stuff about his wife but here we are seeing perhaps he has a part to play in the state of the marriage? If he has more awareness of alternate ways of handling this type of situation maybe he will be better off in his next relationship if and when that happens.

If the truth makes him more resentful and angry with his wife so that he finally decides to leave, maybe it is for the better ?

[IndiReloaded]

I also think that Danny's post is very sensible. HIA made a very good point about the trust test (which Danny acknowledged). I agree the whole self-help thing, and its associated labels, is over the top. Of course, I don't know that my post was much clearer (but at least the ideas are original and not rehashes of someone else's bunk).

You're entitled to your wrong opinion. I respect that fact.

This^ was an unnecessary attempt to inflame, HIA. Speaking of passive-aggressive. Kudos to Danny for being quite adult and not rising to the bait.

[DannyH]

Incognito is entitled to vent. We are also entitled to suggest how he could have handled the situation better. We have all heard the bad stuff about his wife but here we are seeing perhaps he has a part to play in the state of the marriage? If he has more awareness of alternate ways of handling this type of situation maybe he will be better off in his next relationship if and when that happens.

If the truth makes him more resentful and angry with his wife so that he finally decides to leave, maybe it is for the better ?

Your right but understanding where he is coming from is where you should start before giving people advice. Choosing the right words and format in which the advice should be told should also play a big part to avoid misunderstandings. Withdrawing from a source that is making you angry is abuse from isolation. Can it be? yes. Is it always? no. Did it need to be brought up and labeled as abusive? no. It will cause a misunderstanding.
How people communicate is important, Understanding how people are in different states of mind should affect that. This is why not all people are therapists, negotiators, diplomats, or even con men. Not to mention why people give advice also affects how they say things as well. Do people hop on a topic to help and actually give advice regardless of how they come off(case and point wakeup) or do they hop in a topic and just try to say the right things so other people that frequent these forums think they are a better person?

[HeartIsAching]

You're entitled to your opinion(regardless of how wrong I think they are). I respect that fact.

Anger is a natural and mostly automatic response to pain of one form or another (physical or emotional). Anger can occur when people don't feel well, feel rejected, feel threatened, or experience some loss. The type of pain does not matter; the important thing is that the pain experienced is unpleasant. Because anger never occurs in isolation but rather is necessarily preceded by pain feelings, it is often characterized as a 'secondhand' emotion.

A better understanding of anger.

taken from here. [url=http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=5804&cn=116]Psychology of Anger - Anger Management, Anxiety Attacks & Social Anxiety Disorder[/url]

I like you though you make me step back and look outside the box

No. HERE'S a better understanding of anger. I'm not going to engage with you any further in this thread, I'm choosing to stay on topic. [url=http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/primary_secondary.htm]Primary and secondary emotions[/url]

[HeartIsAching]

I also think that Danny's post is very sensible. HIA made a very good point about the trust test (which Danny acknowledged). I agree the whole self-help thing, and its associated labels, is over the top. Of course, I don't know that my post was much clearer (but at least the ideas are original and not rehashes of someone else's bunk).



This^ was an unnecessary attempt to inflame, HIA. Speaking of passive-aggressive. Kudos to Danny for being quite adult and not rising to the bait.

Maybe you viewed it as such, and maybe it was. At the time, I saw it as an acknowlegement of the fact that he's entitled to his opinion, even if I believe it to be wrong.

[DannyH]

One example of anger being related to fear as a secondary emotion does not mean nearly all anger is fear in disguise.
"Anger is nearly always fear in disguise."
I do like the site you gave though has some nice information on it

[IndiReloaded]

I saw it as an acknowlegement of the fact that he's entitled to his opinion, even if I believe it to be wrong.

Thanks, this clarifies things. You don't really strike me as the PA type, but we all have our moments.

I wonder how Cog will respond to the various replies. The different responses are interesting in their variety. You and Danny (both married guys, I think?) have decided to extrapolate from his question to give advice on his relationship behaviour. My post focussed solely on an answer to his actual question. Asdfg suggests his post was just a vent.

I'm looking forward to the update, Cog.

[HeartIsAching]

Thanks, this clarifies things. You don't really strike me as the PA type, but we all have our moments.

I wonder how Cog will respond to the various replies. The different responses are interesting in their variety. You and Danny (both married guys, I think?) have decided to extrapolate from his question to give advice on his relationship behaviour. My post focussed solely on an answer to his actual question. Asdfg suggests his post was just a vent.

I'm looking forward to the update, Cog.

I am, or maybe I was and am striving to be better. I am striving to be better about a great many things due to events that have gone on in my life over the last couple of years. I spent a year in court-ordered Domestic Violence group therapy, and about another 6 months in one-on-one with a psychologist, and another 4 months in Parenting without Violence group therapy. It's done me a world of good, really opened my eyes about why I and other people do the things they do. I've gone from being blind to going "Aha!"

In the beginning of my DV group therapy, I thought it was all horse-hockey, was feeling victimized, was feeling as if I didn't belong there, then I had an epiphany about 4 months in, and realized that I really DID need this stuff, that I did belong there, etc... I became motivated to make a change.

Two months later, my (now) wife called me and told me she'd finally gotten up the gumption to leave the abusive alcoholic asshole she was married to, and we turned our relationship from friendship to significant others. I got the love of my life back, and I understood why I had needed to learn that lesson. She'd had some lessons of her own to learn (pretty much the opposite of mine) and now we have a wonderful relationship. I'm trying every day to be better and I believe I'm succeeding.

[HeartIsAching]

One example of anger being related to fear as a secondary emotion does not mean nearly all anger is fear in disguise.
"Anger is nearly always fear in disguise."
I do like the site you gave though has some nice information on it

If you examine your root emotion, your PRIMARY emotion that you experienced before you covered it with anger, there's almost always something else, something that you covered with anger. It's a response that men in particular are socialized to do. I thought it was total BS in my classes until I saw my (then) 5 year old son start to ride his bike out into traffic on a busy street. I was off my bike and flinging him to the sidewalk, and started to go ballistic on him... then suddenly realized that I was not REALLY angry, I was frightened, and the reason for my fright no longer existed. Just like that, the anger went away. In nearly every case where you get angry, you can examine your primary feelings and it's some other response you're masking with anger. You'll find if you do it enough that it's true. Your wife yells at you, and your'e instantly enraged... then you realize that you're feeling embarrassed, unappreciated, ridiculed, etc... the anger is what we mask it with.

[DannyH]

Exactly right. The whole point of me going in to this with you isn't to prove the point of anger but to point out how you say something how you write something can be harmful if not written in the correct way can be harmful. your post before I figured out something along the lines on how you posted(the jumping right to abuse lines)which is really why I never got mad and do actually like you. You are succeeding and you do know your stuff but if you don't try to watch how you say things you know it gets taken the wrong way. That's all I'm getting at. oh and congrats cause that is damn awesome

[HeartIsAching]

Exactly right. The whole point of me going in to this with you isn't to prove the point of anger but to point out how you say something how you write something can be harmful if not written in the correct way can be harmful. your post before I figured out something along the lines on how you posted(the jumping right to abuse lines)which is really why I never got mad and do actually like you. You are succeeding and you do know your stuff but if you don't try to watch how you say things you know it gets taken the wrong way. That's all I'm getting at. oh and congrats cause that is damn awesome

As I tried to clarify later, nearly EVERYONE displays and employs abusive behaviors. This doesn't necessarily mean that they're abusive overall, but an abusive tactic is an abusive tactic. If she uses the silent treatment to punish him, it's abusive. If he calls her stupid (whether directly or indirectly) it's abusive. There are better ways.

[DannyH]

Taking sometime to cool off after a fight isn't abusive but when used improperly is. Walking away from a fight isn't abusive but it is when used improperly. Slapping the label of abuse or abusive on things that are not 100% abuse isn't right and leads to more problems. Abuse is a powerful word and should be used carefully.You should know how powerful that word is and the stigma that it leaves on people. Is the point I am trying to make.
You are right though there are better ways
.

[HeartIsAching]

Taking sometime to cool off after a fight isn't abusive but when used improperly is. Walking away from a fight isn't abusive but it is when used improperly. Slapping the label of abuse or abusive on things that are not 100% abuse isn't right and leads to more problems. Abuse is a powerful word and should be used carefully.You should know how powerful that word is and the stigma that it leaves on people. Is the point I am trying to make.
You are right though there are better ways
.

Yes, and that's why I posted about the proper way to take a time out. Stomping out of the house in a huff is not the right way to do it.

[DannyH]

I know you gave some really nice advice just some of the wording was off putting.