Homosexual and Lesbian relations.

[Doc Durian]

She refuses to run the gauntlet, then what? Child is not taken?

The child will always be taken, but the retribution and punishment will rise according to where the timeline is.

I think this is what will be the outcome of your punitive system:

Countless of children on the churches door step. It will not fix any problems and only create a lot of new ones.

If the timeline was scrapped and everything scaled back on the spot, then yes, you would have more baby dumpings, and more parents being sent to jail for endangering the life of an infant and child abandonment.

But we're not doing it in one swoop. As you can see, it's a process over at least a decade, probably more.

Plenty of time for society to prepare those who refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

The children win in the end, and those children grow up to lead their nation into better times.

[IndiReloaded]

The problem I have with these punitive systems is that, while it might teach some responsibility to the adult (maybe, doubtful), it is the child that pays the price. Also, adoption sounds too much like dumping your unwanted pet at the shelter.

Better to control conception. Make people work for and *value* the privilege of reproduction. Contraception should be FREE.

We didn't have a child until we were both capable of providing for him in a stable environment.

[Doc Durian]

Better to control conception.

Any reason why I'm hearing alarm bells on that, Indi?

[IndiReloaded]

Why should it alarm you? Do you have a problem with people needing to demonstrate their ability to drive a 2 ton vehicle?

[Mish]

The child will always be taken, but the retribution and punishment will rise according to where the timeline is.

There will be no retribution and punishment because no one will be taking their children there. They will be disposed through other means.

For now, I'll just hope that the envisioned system remains a figment of your imagination where it belongs.

[IndiReloaded]

I suppose the other way to go about it, if you find the idea of actually preventing conception distasteful, is to provide LARGE tax incentive for those who choose to have children but only after having completed an approved parenting course.

This way, anyone who already has kids (oops!) can still receive benefit. The parents and child benefit from the education (that's the hope).

But, I don't think people should be given a big tax break just b/c they popped kids. Neither do folks who choose not to have them. But, I bet most people, including folks like DINKs, wouldn't mind the tax break if people had to actually work to show they were getting some training to become responsible parents.

[Doc Durian]

Why should it alarm you? Do you have a problem with people needing to demonstrate their ability to drive a 2 ton vehicle?

You're veering dangerously into the oncoming path of the Orwellian Turnpike, Indi, and I'm not travelling there with you.

There will be no retribution and punishment because no one will be taking their children there. They will be disposed through other means.

And when caught doing so, they'll be prosecuted accordingly.

For now, I'll just hope that the envisioned system remains a figment of your imagination where it belongs.

Your hopes are irrelevant to me. You're the product of your environment and I've long since ceased feeling sorry for your type.

I can only open your cage for you. You must leave it on your own accord.

[IndiReloaded]

You're veering dangerously into the oncoming path of the Orwellian Turnpike, Indi, and I'm not travelling there with you.

Not Orwell. McMaster Bujold, actually. Beta Colony. Very egalitarian. I'd live there in a heartbeat.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Colony[/url]

[Doc Durian]

I suppose the other way to go about it, if you find the idea of actually preventing conception distasteful, is to provide LARGE tax incentive for those who choose to have children but only after having completed an approved parenting course.

This way, anyone who already has kids (oops!) can still receive benefit. The parents and child benefit from the education (that's the hope).

But, I don't think people should be given a big tax break just b/c they popped kids. Neither do folks who choose not to have them. But, I bet most people, including folks like DINKs, wouldn't mind the tax break if people had to actually work to show they were getting some training to become responsible parents.

Sorry, old girl, but we're keeping the government out wherever possible instead of inviting them in further to our homes and lives.

The government is the cause of our problems, never the solution.

It's a skeletal crew bare bones "necessary evil" which needs to be continually spanked and kept in its place.

[IndiReloaded]

I agree the government is not meant to be a solution, merely a resource for people. But I disagree with its complete removal. Most humans are simply not capable of governing themselves. There will always be a need for leadership, genetics don't lie and its about 2% of the population that could function completely without guidance of some form.

[ecojeanne]

people beg to be governed, they don't like taking responsibility and there ain't nothin anyone can do to change that...

[IndiReloaded]

Doc's being polite, but here comes the 'elitist' comments...

[Mish]

And when caught doing so, they'll be prosecuted accordingly.

There will be no prosecutions. The churches will take the unwanted like they did before. Maybe there will even be gay and lesbian associations setup to cater for these new needs created by the government you envision. So those who want to adopt out will do it through them. Come to think of it, maybe your plan really is a good idea. More power to the minorities.

I can only open your cage for you. You must leave it on your own accord.

Dude, you're so full of shit

[Doc Durian]

I agree the government is not meant to be a solution, merely a resource for people. But I disagree with its complete removal. Most humans are simply not capable of governing themselves. There will always be a need for leadership, genetics don't lie and its about 2% of the population that could function completely without guidance of some form.

Some government is necessary. The minimal amount required to do a basic openly transparent and no frills job.

I disagree with your 2 percent comment and we'll leave it at that.

people beg to be governed, they don't like taking responsibility and there ain't nothin anyone can do to change that...

It's not about liking or not liking it. It's responsibility. It's a given. You have it, I have it, they have it. Whether it's taken seriously or not, matters not. Governments absolutely love your mindset, Eco. It's where they really thrive and stretch their arms and legs out.

Doc's being polite, but here comes the 'elitist' comments...

No soup for you!

[IndiReloaded]

Well, Doc, I agree with you. No human should willingly give away their right to free thinking or action. But, I would amend Eco's point to be more about responsibility (or lack of): there a lots of folks who'd like to tell 'the system' "FUK YOU", but they don't have a clue what to do then. You see them all the time: ones who will flip the finger to the system w/one hand and take the handout with the other.

The problem is a lack of acceptance for the personal responsibility that comes along with self-governance. Its actually HARDER than letting someone take care of shit for you, and fact is, there are lots of lazy folks out there.