has anyone else here ever felt hopeless about dating?

[1averagejoe]

starbuck says:

"Why isn't a potential female dating prospect expected to be most of those things? You want to date ugly, humorless, insecure girls? I highly doubt it."

I don't think 1averagejoe meant that girls are expected to be the opposite of what he listed. He is saying that girls aren't expected to meet those attributes to the same degree as guys.

Exactly,
Thank You.

Why isn't a potential female dating prospect expected to be most of those things? You want to date ugly, humorless, insecure girls? I highly doubt it.

Of course not...but they also aren't expected to have a good job, be able to support a family, or be the first to make a move.

Getting a good job isn't an easy thing, then we're expected to make the move on you. Really now, how about the other way around once in a while? I mean I've never been hit on or even had a girl come up to talk to me once. There's a lot of expectation that prince charming of a guy is supposed to come and sweep women off of their feet. You want equality, how about asking a guy out for once, working your ass off to get a good job, and supporting a family?

Any guy expecting that a women is going to do that for him is going to be single for quite some time. So we're forced to conform to these expectations. As an introvert, it's more upsetting for me that women expect us to approach them. Doesn't mean I don't, it's just hard for me to.

[1averagejoe]

*double post*
sorry.

[Zilla80]

I think for most men a quality woman is the ultimate prize. If you want the prize, you have to do the things they want you to. Period.

I know people are using this to mostly vent but let's be real here. As frustrating as it may be, they (women) are the prize we (men) ultimately want, so we have to play by their rules. Something so precious surely doesn't come easy.

[starbuck]

Getting a good job isn't an easy thing, then we're expected to make the move on you. Really now, how about the other way around once in a while? I mean I've never been hit on or even had a girl come up to talk to me once. There's a lot of expectation that prince charming of a guy is supposed to come and sweep women off of their feet. You want equality, how about asking a guy out for once, working your ass off to get a good job, and supporting a family?

You know what Joe? My mom was the main breadwinner in our household growing up. My dad had a job, too, but was definitely not as supportive, financially and emotionally. My mom almost single-handedly raised two kids, and worked her ass off doing it.

My sister currently is the main breadwinner in her family, too. She and her fiancee are both working hard to take care of their baby. She makes much more money than he. They have no complaints.

My mom taught us both to work our asses off because nothing in life is guaranteed.

This kind of stuff is just actually pointless to argue about because these "expectations" you're talking about are really just your current perceptions, based on generalizations.

[1averagejoe]

I think for most men a quality woman is the ultimate prize. If you want the prize, you have to do the things they want you to. Period.

I know people are using this to mostly vent but let's be real here. As frustrating as it may be, they (women) are the prize we (men) ultimately want, so we have to play by their rules. Something so precious surely doesn't come easy.

I agree with everything you said. Although I feel prize is somewhat demeaning in a way. I see it as more along the lines of meeting someone's standards and beating the next guy to her.

And yes, this is a vent for me. I'm not an asshole like this in person about the roles for women and men. So to everyone, please don't take offense to what I'm saying. It's just my personal opinion on the subject.

This kind of stuff is just actually pointless to argue about because these "expectations" you're talking about are really just your current perceptions, based on generalizations.

Exactly!

Generalizations are based on what a majority of society does or agrees upon. You're confusing these with stereotypes which would assume ALL people agree on or are that way.

Sure you know a few people that are not like what I mentioned. But what about the majority of the people you know?

[starbuck]

To be honest Joe, maybe it's my location, but I know alot of career driven women.

And generalizations may not be like stereotypes, but are not the same as facts. Generalizing isn't a way to find "truth."

It's actually up to you if you want to keep believing these perceptions. But if you start feeling bitter about it, then you only have your own beliefs to blame.

[1averagejoe]

To be honest Joe, maybe it's my location, but I know alot of career driven women. And generalizations may not be like stereotypes, but are not the same as facts. Generalizing isn't a way to find "truth."

That is a good thing, I have nothing against career driven women. I actually respect women who work their asses off and try to do something most women don't. Of course generalizing isn't a way of to find "truth." But I'm not looking for truth, I'm looking for a majority. This is what the majority of society has set as the expectations for both men and women. Do all people follow it? Of course not and you gave examples of people who don't.

But the thing that sucks is we're almost stuck in these roles. And especially for males if you try to do different than what is the "norm" you're looked upon as a lazy ass bum. And of course that's not to say it's always true. But it is most of the time.

It's actually up to you if you want to keep believing these perceptions. But if you start feeling bitter about it, then you only have your own beliefs to blame.

Up to me to belief what? It's not about believing anything. It's moreso about the majority of people's opinions. MOST women want a guy who will play the supporting role in a family or the other things I mentioned. Do all women want that? Of course not.

Do I have bitter feelings about this subject? No, why would I? I expect it out of myself to be the supporting role in my future family. That's why I'm working my ass off right now in college to get a degree.

[GrkScorp]

Neo.., we're cool.. So I think I can say this without you taking it the wrong way.. No matter who tries to strategically add a "thanks" at the bottom of this post..

Do you see this irony in the following two statements?

- At least you're not like those bitter men who have had a couple of bad experiences with women and have developed a general hate for all women..

- All men are assholes and jerks who only think about sex.., are afraid of commitment.., are totally insensitive.., dumb.., violent.., and abusive.. They will lie and pretend they're not.., but it's the truth!

It's really as clear as day..

Now.., I'm actually really surprised to hear YOU.., out of all people.., say what you just said..

No.., you didn't commit some kind of crime.., it wasn't something morally bad you should feel deeply or eternally guilty about.. But it doesn't make sense from someone like you..

Are you really sexually frustrated? Is that the fault of women.., or because you're really not feeling too motivated to go have sex? If you lack the energy or motivation.., then are you really sexually frustrated? Even if you are.., it's just as bad as the women who make those blanket generalizations about men..

Unless you were just joking.. But it wasn't really clear if it was just dark sexist humor or not.. Though I really hope you were just joking and you don't seriously believe humor as truth..

It's one thing to talk about a particular person.., or a small sub-group within the female population.. But there are so many different kinds of women.., and they're all so very different from each other..

Make no mistake about it.., there are no saints in either of the genders.., and there are roughly the same devils running around from both sides.. It's not very fair to believe that either one is more moral or virtuous than the other.. But it's also not too realistic to think that either have bad intentions..

From age 35 and under.., have you met just ONE "bad" woman on this form? Even most of the older ones are genuinely great and happy people.. Hate clouds judgment.. You're too cool and good looking to be that kind of person Neo..

Women are really are wonderful creatures.., they're caring.., sensitive.., and loving.. That's what they are.. Behind every woman.., is still a little girl.., that has to play the role of an adult.. You can't forget that.. It's very unfair to treat ALL women like the FEW that have made you feel this way.. All jokes aside.., they're really not ALL like that.. and "no".., it shouldn't be your goal to sleep with as many of them as you can.. It doesn't make anymore more of a man.. Unless you just want to get it out of your system so that you are never tempted to cheat with the person you do end up falling in love with.. But if that's genuinely what you feel towards women.., maybe a PUA forum would be more appropriate than LF.. But that's what bothered me so much that I just had to respond.. You're not that kind of person at all! Your goal should be to find love.., not sex.. The former is more satisfying than the latter.. really!

I'm tired of seeing awesome guys start thinking that way.. If I had a daughter or a sister.., (prior to you saying what you just said) I'd want her to date someone like you.. I know it's a pretty rough post to read.., very personal.. The personal attack style of some don't exactly help.. But please do give it some thought Neo.. You don't owe anyone an apology.., because you haven't done anything wrong.. But do consider what everyone is saying..

I don't think anyone who posted so far is that insecure and miserable with themselves to be "attacking" you for what you said..

Nobody is calling it "wrong" or trying to help you to see things their way.., or try and prove that they are more right than you.. That's not at all what's going on here at all.. It's a forum.., not high school.. We're just talking.. So there's no reason to lock-up and not consider what everyone else besides shh! has been saying..

[1averagejoe]

I'm not going to lie...I was a bit surprised with neo's response as well.

I've always looked as you as that perfect guy. Great looks, body, personality, and respect for women.

[GrkScorp]

You want equality, how about asking a guy out for once, working your ass off to get a good job, and supporting a family?

That last part was very offensive.., and I'm a guy..

I'll have you know that I know men who are the biggest lazy fcuks on the face of this earth.. That aren't responsible enough to make it on their own every month.., and their apartment looks like a war zone..

Considering how far women have come in such a short amount of time is very impressive.. Drastic change like that doesn't take place overnight.. What's a century or so in the face of tens of thousands of years?

It's one thing to look at people who are lazy and make excuses for themselves.., call themselves independent and self-sufficient but can't even raise a family on their own.. But that's very different from saying that women should get off their ass and work.. That's as if you're implying that all women sit on their ass and expect a man to take care of everything.. Women like starbuck aren't exactly a minority among women..

Next..

Maybe you've never been out with a bunch of female friends and help them look for guys..

Do you have any idea how hard it is for women to approach men? Forget about how YOU feel (as a guy).., if you can't consider the other person's point of view.., how can you expect to understand how it feels like for them?

If you think you're nervous or afraid of them not being interested in you and then feeling less attractive or bad about yourself.., just imagine that it's worse for women.. Can you imagine what it would feel like if that emotion and feeling was just 1% stronger? Think about it.. How would it feel like? Now.., what would it feel like if it was 200% stronger? It's no exaggeration..

All very good looking girls.., wanting to get some male attention.. Some creepy ugly guys would glance and look at them.., but not a single approach.. Given.., it didn't help that there was a guy in their group.. So I left.. And even then.. They just sat there.. Not even looking around the room.., just talking among themselves.., loudly.. Then going up to dance and hope that something happens.., magically.. Nothing..

I told them.., all you need to do is walk up to a guy.., casually brush his arm so he knows you're there.., tap his shoulder.., let him turn around.. and say.. "Do you watch One Tree Hill? (what guy watches that show?) You look a lot like the guy from that show! (he won't even remember the name of the show)".. Conversation starts flowing..

They still didn't want to do it.. It's only partly ego and pride.. But a lot of it is self esteem.. Ego and pride act to legitimize and justify the way she acts to her own self.. She doesn't want to think "I'm not confident enough to just start a conversation.., I'm afraid of rejection and can't even talk to someone I like because I'm afraid they might not like me".. So it's easier to think.. "he's the guy.., let him come over and talk to me.., I'm not going to start talking to him.. That's his job.."

Stop thinking about it as a guy for a second.. can you do that? Good to think about it from her point of view.. She needs to tell herself that.. She feels way more nervous than a guy would.. She needs to feel a sense of comfort and security first.. She can't feel that if she initiates.. That's why she's waiting for the guy to initiate.. It has NOTHING to do with him being the man or what it shows her or any of that nonsense she tells herself and her friends.. It's because she needs to feel comfortable and safe.., and be reassured about his interest in her first..

Fear is holding her back.. And do you know what chemical in the body doesn't allow for fear to inhibit action? Let's just put it this way.., you supposedly have the balls in the relationship.. If you can't do something as simple as get over your fear of rejection and walk over to initiate.., then how likely is it that you'll be able to face bigger and more serious fears in the future?

I know it sounds like I'm being hard on you AJ.. I promise you I'm not.. It's one thing to have little tolerance for dishonesty and getting a little too carried away with playing hard-to-get.., but having zero tolerance for her not initiating is going to cost one many lonely nights before they get rid of that expectation..

Not only should you be comfortable initiating.., you should love initiating.. It's your gift to her.. She came out to supposedly "dance" or "drink" or "have fun".. And she'll say that's why she "really" came out with very powerful conviction.. You might not want to be mean.., so you'll let it slide and pretend to believe her.. But you know that she came out to get male attention.. And if you see that nobody has been approaching her.., don't be fooled by her posture or appearance.. She's just frustrated by the lack of attention she's been getting and is trying to not let it show.. When you go over to talk to her.., externally she might not show it.., but inside.., she's thrilled someone came over to talk to her..

If only you knew how many women go home at night from a bar or a club and not a single guy has approached them to start a good conversation with them.. It's fcukn' depressing and rough on her self esteem.. The funny thing is.., you're eventually going to do it.. and you're going to look back on all of this one day.., and kick yourself in the ass for all those missed opportunities or for all those years you wasted when you were younger.. It's so easy to approach.., and it's so welcome.., it's not even funny..

Men really do have it easier than women..

[1averagejoe]

Ok ok...I can't argue with you Grk, you got me, lol.

I know when I lost. haha

But it does make sense. Only problem with me is that I haven't had much luck and it's a bit frustrating on my end. At the moment I'm tired of it all. It's just stressful and I think a bit of it is being vented in this thread.

Sorry to everyone I may have offended in the process.

[GrkScorp]

Ok ok...I can't argue with you Grk, you got me, lol.

I know when I lost. haha

It's not about winning or losing AJ.., and I didn't mean for it to come off as an argument..

If you think you lost.., you didn't.., you actually won..

But it does make sense. Only problem with me is that I haven't had much luck and it's a bit frustrating on my end. At the moment I'm tired of it all. It's just stressful and I think a bit of it is being vented in this thread.

Much luck with what?

What is it exactly that you really want to do?

[1averagejoe]

Much luck with what?

What is it exactly that you really want to do?

Ladies...either I get turned down, ignored, or just recently have a very WEIRD date.

[NeoSeminole]

GrkScorp says:

"Do you see this irony in the following two statements?

- At least you're not like those bitter men who have had a couple of bad experiences with women and have developed a general hate for all women..

- All men are assholes and jerks who only think about sex.., are afraid of commitment.., are totally insensitive.., dumb.., violent.., and abusive.. They will lie and pretend they're not.., but it's the truth!"

no, I don't see the irony. Care to explain?

"Are you really sexually frustrated? Is that the fault of women.., or because you're really not feeling too motivated to go have sex? If you lack the energy or motivation.., then are you really sexually frustrated? Even if you are.., it's just as bad as the women who make those blanket generalizations about men.."

I really don't know what you are talking about. I had sex on Fri. with a new girl and was friends with benefits with a cougar before that.

Unless you were just joking.. But it wasn't really clear if it was just dark sexist humor or not.. Though I really hope you were just joking and you don't seriously believe humor as truth..

joking about what?

It's one thing to talk about a particular person.., or a small sub-group within the female population.. But there are so many different kinds of women.., and they're all so very different from each other..

I was referring to the majority of girls. Yes, there are exceptions to this. People are quick to point out how they know someone who doesn't fit a generalization but for each of these individuals, there are many more who do conform to the majority.

From age 35 and under.., have you met just ONE "bad" woman on this form? Even most of the older ones are genuinely great and happy people.. Hate clouds judgment.. You're too cool and good looking to be that kind of person Neo..

it's difficult to say whether I've met any "bad" females under 35 on LF since I don't know them in person.

Women are really are wonderful creatures.., they're caring.., sensitive.., and loving.. That's what they are.. Behind every woman.., is still a little girl.., that has to play the role of an adult.. You can't forget that.. It's very unfair to treat ALL women like the FEW that have made you feel this way.. All jokes aside.., they're really not ALL like that.. and "no".., it shouldn't be your goal to sleep with as many of them as you can.. It doesn't make anymore more of a man.. Unless you just want to get it out of your system so that you are never tempted to cheat with the person you do end up falling in love with.. But if that's genuinely what you feel towards women.., maybe a PUA forum would be more appropriate than LF.. But that's what bothered me so much that I just had to respond.. You're not that kind of person at all! Your goal should be to find love.., not sex.. The former is more satisfying than the latter.. really!

are we talking about girls or women? B/c I don't consider them the same. To me, an older female can be a woman physically but still have the mentality of a girl. And I do think guys should try to sleep with as many girls as possible when they are in their 20s. Relationships are practically useless at that age. They hardly work out and someone usually gets hurt. I agree that love is more satisfying than sex, but I'm not going to stop f*cking girls until I decide to settle down.

[NeoSeminole]

1averagejoe, I'd be more than glad to help you out. You should start another thread like "1averagejoe's Approach Log" and keep a journal of all your approaches and the results. Then I can critique what you're doing wrong.