Choosing between two guys

[CoffeeShot]

I've been trying to decide what to do about this for weeks and I think that outside opinions would help tremendously. Feel free to skip the long background story & jump to the pros/cons lists.

I'm currently going out with 'David'. We've been together for two years and it's been kind of rocky, but we've always ended up back together. He's a very intelligent person who sometimes lets it go to his head and borders on arrogant. The past couple of months I had been feeling like things were going pretty awful between us. He was always caught up in his research and math equations and the times that we did talk or hang out, he routinely attempted to lecture me and teach me what he was learning about, which I found to be a bit pushy. Despite my frequent requests to go out and do more together, he was always content sitting in his room smoking pot (which I partake in as well, so it's not a huge deal, but sometimes it's nice to get out).

So, as a result I started looking for friendship elsewhere hoping that if I could get out and do stuff with friends, it wouldn't hurt our relationship and we would both be happy. Well, I met 'Mark' through my work and he's been so kind towards me, it's making me completely rethink my relationship with David. In the few weeks that I've known Mark, he's brought in candy for me at work, taken me to the zoo, bought me little gifts here and there, texts me quite often, makes plans with me, etc. But I can't tell if I like him or the attention. And I feel TERRIBLE being with David and thinking about Mark so often.

I started talking to David about how I was feeling, but I did not mention anything about Mark. I tried to break things off with David because I honestly thought he was getting tired of me. He seemed to not care about our relationship at all. Imagine my surprise when he burst into tears and said that he didn't want to lose me and would make things better. I was so sure that he didn't care about me but now apparently I was wrong. Yesterday he came to my house with a bag of random gifts and we had a nice time together. I just can't tell if he's doing this because he actually cares about me or if things are just going to go back to the way that they were.

So I think that my options here are either to break things off with David or completely push Mark into the friend zone. I'm sick of being unsure and feeling like I'm bordering on cheating, despite the fact that Mark and I have yet to even hug. For reference, I'm 20, David is 21, and Mark is 27. So there's the background, here's some information about each of them:

David Pros:
-Intellectually stimulating.
-Sometimes incredibly fun to be around.
-We've been together so long, I can talk to him about anything. We can read each others minds most of the time. He's familiar and safe to me.
-Good future, he's a computer engineering major. Currently works at a fast food restaurant.
-I feel so connected to him...any attempts to cut off contact hurt like crazy, which is why we always ended up back together.
-I feel like he needs me.

David Cons:
-Does not take the lead; I need to plan everything or it doesn't happen.
-Can be arrogant at times.
-Can be quite pessimistic.
-Kind of neurotic, freaks out at the most minor occurrences.
-We're incredibly dependent on each other, which I feel limits our individual growth.

Mark Pros:
-Incredibly thoughtful - does all sorts of nice things that I haven't experienced with other guys. Makes me wonder if he's this way toward everyone, though.
-Takes the lead, he plans things and runs with it.
-He loves to make people laugh & is constantly cracking jokes.
-Incredibly carefree and happy attitude.
-Has a good job in finance with plans to get a degree & go into management.
-More mature than David, but also pretty silly.
-Loves kids.

Mark Cons:
-Was a bit crazyin public, saying stupid jokes to the staff at one point...was that him trying to get me to laugh or being obnoxious?
-I've only known him for a couple of months, so there isn't as much depth to our relationship yet. I could just be seeing what I want to see.

So, can anyone offer some helpful advice? I'm really stuck here. I feel obligated to stay with David, and there are times that we still have a lot of fun together. But our time is usually 60% arguing or being depressed and 40% enjoying ourselves, UNTIL I get so tired of it that it comes to me wanting to break it off. Then things get better. I don't want to keep going in this circle but I also don't want to set my expectations too unrealistically high.

The idea of being in a relationship where we're both happy and being with someone who takes charge and doesn't make me feel like the man is so, so, so appealing. But no relationship is perfect and I don't want to lose a good thing just because my mind is wandering. The grass is always greener and all.. I'm just so confused! >_<

[Alvy]

Well if I were fruity, I'd go with Mark. He sounds (on paper at least) like a far more upstanding man. David's pessimism and his freaking out over small situations will wear you down the more time you spend with him. His act of desperation was exactly that. I wouldn't be surprised if a few months from now, he'll go back to his old ways and put you low on his priority list. But you sound like you're more 'into' David, for whatever reason. Maybe because you've known him for a longer period, so it's harder for you to cut him out. And there's the inability to take charge. Frankly, David sounds more like a kid. The dependency on you will, like you said, stunt both of your chances of individual growth. You've realised that. He probably hasn't. 5 to 10 years from now, who do you think you'll get along better with? Don't forget that when you're 30, what you want in a partner will be very different to what you want now, which seems to be just someone to hang with and smoke pot. If you feel nothing for Mark, then, tell him you're not romantically interested. At least he'll get the chance to find someone who wants him and only him.

[CoffeeShot]

Thank you, Alvy. I appreciate your response. That's exactly how I feel, like overall Mark would be better for me. But I can't escape this guilt from the thought of breaking up with David. I just feel awful, like I'm deserting him. But I want to live my life...I hate having to ask permission to hang out with friends or feel guilty because I'm doing something without him. But I feel like I'll fall apart if I break up with him. I don't know what to do, I'm just in a constant state of confusion and unhappiness.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the child comment about David. I feel like I'm the adult in our relationship and I have to take care of him. I was the reason he started attending college in the first place and he's mentioned before that if things end between us he'll probably drop out and move out of state. I feel like if I break up with him I'll ruin his life and I've gotta tell you, I HATE having this much responsibility on my shoulders. I have to choose between my happiness and his. Looking at it objectively, a significant other shouldn't place that burden on their partner. It's not right. But I keep telling myself and I still feel like my heart is just shattering into pieces when I think about leaving him. I think I have some abandonment issues from my childhood which may be influencing this, although at 20 years old I should really be over that crap by now.

I would really appreciate any other input on this...sorry it's so much to read.

[CoffeeShot]

""Don't forget that when you're 30, what you want in a partner will be very different to what you want now, which seems to be just someone to hang with and smoke pot.""

And in response to this, I do not simply want someone to hang out and smoke with. That's why I've been trying so hard to convince David to get out and do things with me, to get out of his (parent's) house once in a while. I don't want that to be my entire life. I've told him before how much it bothers me that 90% of the time when we hang out, we're at his house doing just that. I want to have a great job, adopt children, own a home, travel...there are so many things that I want to do and am thinking about besides smoking, and still SO MUCH I need to do to get there. I don't want to waste my life sitting in his bedroom.

Talking to him about it helps a little bit but he never takes my concerns seriously until we're having 'the talk' about our relationship in general. Deep down I think that it would be healthier for us to part ways, but I'm in a constant battle of morality with myself that hurting people is wrong so I should just grin and bear it. His best friend just moved out of state and he has no one else to turn to. I feel like a monster for considering leaving him and am starting to get physically sick from this stress. I just don't know what to do.

[Alvy]

Well a proper relationship is meant to bring happiness for both parties involved. You sound far from happy with him at the moment. On the bright side, you're only 20. Don't let him drag you down to his miserable level. As for the whole 'hurting people is wrong' philosophy you have...sometimes hurting them is the only way they'll learn. It's your life. You're still young. There's no point trying to please others unless you're happy with yourself. The last thing you want to remember about your 20s when you're 50 or 60 is how much of a burden some guy's placing on you. Consider what life would be like with him when he's 30, living with his parents and smoking pot. It doesn't look so hot does it?

Give him an ultimatum. He'll either clean up his act, or continue to wallow in melodramatic misery. Or cut down on the amount of time you spend with him as well. Maybe once or twice a fortnight, maximum. If he calls/texts you, ignore them. You'll probably be tempted to reply back, but use some discipline and don't let him manipulate you. If he brings out the puppy dog eyes, tell him to toughen up and stop acting like a baby. No decent woman finds desperation an attractive quality in a man. If he brings out the 'my life is ruined because you're breaking up with me' card, tell him he's not dying from some horrible disease, he's not 120 and on his deathbed, he's not living in extreme poverty and he doesn't have massive burns across his entire body. He's 21. Every 21 year old who breaks up thinks their life is ruined when in reality, it's basically an exaggerated case of spilt milk. There's plenty of milk left somewhere, and he'll get plenty of milk later on.

[ConfusedAlex]

I totally disagree with what other people have said, I don't think you should just write David off, break up with him . Mark is clearly seeking at least sex from you, if not a relationship. Do you know at this point that it is a relationship? That he wouldn't break it off the second he had gotten what he wanted, or a couple of weeks or months. I would be quite wary of anyone who seeks out a relationship with someone who is already in one.

Secondly, there might be a difference in how mature they are, but there is also a significant age difference. What was I doing when I was 20? Sitting around smoking pot with my boyfriend. Yeah, it might have been better if we'd done some things and not done other things, but we were young and we loved each other. It didn't prevent me from getting my degree and getting a good job in finance. Everyone does things when they're young that they grow out of, just keep in mind how profound the age difference is between 20 and 27.

Clearly, David needs to sort himself out and be a bit more of the kind of man you want, but also keep in mind that you are both quite young, and there is a strong appeal in the maturity of the sort a 27 year old has when you are 20. But that often comes with a price, insofar as you're at totally different stages at your life, and, I think, more likely not to be able to clearly read the intentions of someone significantly older and more mature.

[ConfusedAlex]

Another thing is that it sounds clear that David is profoundly intelligent. Its not easy when you are so far ahead of your peers intellectually. I encourage you to talk to David and tell him that some of the things he's interested in talking about don't hold much interest for you.

And sometimes you just need to force yourself to be interested in it, or at least listen to what he's saying. Relationships are about compromise; it sounds like you have done a lot to make the relationship work, and I doubt you'd have gotten this far if there wasn't that kind of connection between you that is something that's worth trying to preserve.

I think you already mentioned it too; the attention, excitement, the grass is greener feeling, that would fade pretty quickly if you were to break it off and go out with Mark.

Try to work things out with David, make it clear you're serious.. give it a good shot, and if it doesn't work out, you know you've done your best, and you can fairly move on with no hard feelings and no regrets.

[CoffeeShot]

I totally disagree with what other people have said, I don't think you should just write David off, break up with him . Mark is clearly seeking at least sex from you, if not a relationship. Do you know at this point that it is a relationship? That he wouldn't break it off the second he had gotten what he wanted, or a couple of weeks or months. I would be quite wary of anyone who seeks out a relationship with someone who is already in one.

Secondly, there might be a difference in how mature they are, but there is also a significant age difference. What was I doing when I was 20? Sitting around smoking pot with my boyfriend. Yeah, it might have been better if we'd done some things and not done other things, but we were young and we loved each other. It didn't prevent me from getting my degree and getting a good job in finance. Everyone does things when they're young that they grow out of, just keep in mind how profound the age difference is between 20 and 27.

Clearly, David needs to sort himself out and be a bit more of the kind of man you want, but also keep in mind that you are both quite young, and there is a strong appeal in the maturity of the sort a 27 year old has when you are 20. But that often comes with a price, insofar as you're at totally different stages at your life, and, I think, more likely not to be able to clearly read the intentions of someone significantly older and more mature.

Thank you for your responses. Mark and I are definitely not in a relationship. He knows that I'm with David. Although we have hung out together and talk often, I don't feel that we've done anything 'relationship-esque'. No physical contact or anything like that. You bring up a great point about the age difference. Seeing as we work together, I strongly doubt that he's just after sex...and if he is, then he's going to be very, very disappointed as that's not something that I do with just anyone. But, I can't read his thoughts so you could be right. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Another thing is that it sounds clear that David is profoundly intelligent. Its not easy when you are so far ahead of your peers intellectually. I encourage you to talk to David and tell him that some of the things he's interested in talking about don't hold much interest for you.

And sometimes you just need to force yourself to be interested in it, or at least listen to what he's saying. Relationships are about compromise; it sounds like you have done a lot to make the relationship work, and I doubt you'd have gotten this far if there wasn't that kind of connection between you that is something that's worth trying to preserve.

I think you already mentioned it too; the attention, excitement, the grass is greener feeling, that would fade pretty quickly if you were to break it off and go out with Mark.

Try to work things out with David, make it clear you're serious.. give it a good shot, and if it doesn't work out, you know you've done your best, and you can fairly move on with no hard feelings and no regrets.

David is incredibly intelligent. And I have mentioned to him that while functions and limits are interesting to him, that it's just not something that I'm interested in. I hate feeling like I'm being lectured to. Although he has gone through a lot; he might just be happy that he's so good at something and wants to share it with me. I still can't shake that feeling that he's trying to stroke his ego and talk down to me, though. OR that he's acting like a child 'look what I can do!" and I hate that I feel that way. I wish I could just be happy for him. At any rate, my requests for him to stop lecturing me have been in vain; he continues to do so. That's something else that kind of bothers me, he's great at telling me he'll do this or that but he rarely follows through.

[ConfusedAlex]

Hey coffeeshot,

I guess I can empathise from both perspectives there, I'm quite intelligent (if I can say that about myself) and love economics and law. My first boyfriend was studying computer science. We both wanted to tell each other about some thing or another, and the other would politely listen or occasionally say that they weren't that interested. I wasn't particularly interested in GUIs and ROMs and the rest, though luckily for me, he was interested in politics and economics and the law, though to a lesser degree than myself. Subsequent liaisons, though, often involve people who have no interest in what I'm interested in.

The problem can come when instead of having friends with similar interests who you can discuss these things with and derive intellectual stimulation from, you unload on your partner. That would appear to be what's happening here, and I have nil interest in higher mathematics, so I can understand how boring that might be.

I guess I would just encourage you to do what you can to save the relationship and have David be a better boyfriend. These kinds of relationships are difficult because you change very quickly when you're young, and it sounds like a relationship that you were both comfortable with is one you're maturing out of now.

One last thing, there's a tendency to pathologise anything and everything these days, such as "codependency". That term has no scientific basis, its the province of self help books and Dr Phil and the like, which are, in my opinion, one part common sense and one part snake oil. If you are going to use a counsellor, find one who went to a good university.

Good luck with it, I hope things go well

[ConfusedAlex]

I just re-read the second paragraph of your response to my posts, I just realised how much David sounds like me at that age. You might proceed more profitably by encouraging him to get some help with his (ADHD? I don't know). Though I'm also cognisant of how ridiculously expensive healthcare is in the US; I found that Omega 3 fish oil capsules and multivitamins really helped me dampen my natural tendencies to go on and on about something.

I bet it must feel like lecturing whenever you're saying something the other person is just dying to get out their next sentence and not really listening to what you're saying. Frustrating, I know, but I can empathise with that so maybe its personal bias that makes me say stick with David a bit, see if he can get some help.

[CoffeeShot]

Well, David and I talked about a lot of things last night. He said that he was feeling really overwhelmed with school and is going to drop one of his classes which will free up some time and hopefully with his stress level down things won't be quite as bad. Something that worries me is that when I said I wanted us to take more time for ourselves, he got incredibly upset. I made it clear that I need more time to get stuff done, because I'm already falling behind in school and I barely eat/sleep because of my work and school schedule. We've seen each other every single day except one for the past year or so and we don't live together. So it's been a bit excessive/distracting lol I think that this will be a good 'test' for our relationship. We need to be able to do things independently of each other, and if he really has a problem with me pursuing my degree then our issues probably can't be resolved. But like you said, if things do go further south I'll at least know that I tried.

Jeez, you aren't kidding. We've both changed so much since we started going out together. It's hard to keep up. Yeah...I was running on no food and 4 hours of sleep yesterday and I think I was just looking for something to verify my feelings and I kept finding those articles about codependency and identified with them lol But I think you're right about that, I looked some more into it and it's total crap, it's not even in the DSM. Guess this means no more excuses for me!

I have encouraged him so many times to get help. The way that he talks sometimes I'm afraid he's going to do something drastic, especially if I leave :/ That's one of the biggest things that's kept me from ending things already, because we have had a pretty rocky relationship overall. He's depressed so often and I just don't know how to make it better. He refuses to talk to someone because he thinks that western psychology is useless.

Yes, or when I talk about something and less than a minute later he asks a question that I had just answered in what I said. That happens so often, it's like he doesn't even listen to me sometimes. If he spent as much time listening to me as he does staring at my chest I think things would be a lot better. Lol!

Thanks again, I appreciate your level headed responses

[CoffeeShot]

So what do you guys think about this? Mark knows that David and I are having issues, although I haven't gone into many details. (I really hate whining to people; I feel bad enough whining to the internet lol Besides that's my and David's business, not Mark's) There was one day I was incredibly upset and let it slip that David was a bit antisocial and our personalities kind of clashed, but that's it. Up until now when he's asked "So how are things with you and David?" I've usually given responses like 'good' or 'not good', something vague like that. And Mark usually just says 'Well, whatever happens I hope things work out/I hope that you're happy/etc" But last night, he caught me off guard by saying "Doesn't really seem to me he cares, but that's just my take. You should probably ask someone else who has more information than I do." (FYI, I didn't ask his opinion - he asked me how things were going and responded with that. Then he said "Otherwise it's a bit unfair, you can't stay with someone who treats you bad or doesn't care or just because you think they'll do something crazy."

So my bs radar is on full blast, but I'm still terrible at picking up on this kind of stuff. He could be a friend trying to look out for me, OR he could be intentionally trying to get me to end things with David so I'll go out with him, which I'm not sure I could do right away anyway. The fact that my mother and brother don't care for David and my friends...oh wait...I don't have friends because I spend all of my time with David lol But when I did have friends they weren't really on board with my relationship either. So now I'm just all sorts of confused -_-

Oh, and also last night when I was talking to David he said that he thinks a lot about 'going far away'. Dropping out of school, quitting his job, and moving in with a friend out of state or something. I told him to do whatever will make him happiest. He said if he did that he would just disappear one day. What is that supposed to mean? Am I supposed to anticipate him leaving suddenly or something? Very random.

[Alvy]

Sounds like your typical teenage girl threatening to run away from home, only this time its coming from a 21 year old kid. Which is probably even more pathetic. I don't see why it's so difficult to end things with David. He may be 'intelligent', but he also sounds like a very toxic person to be around with. If you want to stay with Dave, be prepared to sacrifice most of your 20s looking after a big kid instead growing and fostering friendships with new people.

[CoffeeShot]

Well, I ended things with David last night. I stopped by my mom's house and shared everything with her and she was afraid that he would try to hurt me or something...she was so worried, it really made me take a step back and look at our relationship in a different way. We really were just feeding each others misery. I just hope that David gets the help that he needs. Last night he mentioned that he is 'what they would refer to as schizophrenic' and that sometimes he felt like he was possessed...I'm really worried about him. But I've decided that a year of worrying for someone else is more than enough and I need to move on. We both need to move on.

Funny thing is, I was so afraid of upsetting him but he seemed more confused than anything else. "So...you don't love me." was his response. "You don't care about me." He said that we could work things out but we've tried so many times...he didn't have an answer for that one. He started crying eventually and that's when I knew it was time to go. I just couldn't let myself be guilt tripped again. I almost didn't go through with it because at first when I got to his house he was so happy. But then the typical things kicked in with him getting annoyed with me over stupid things, making negative comments, throwing pity parties...I'm tired of playing a victim and not enjoying my life.

Once I get over this sick, guilty feeling I'm sure I'll be able to do that lol It's easy when I look at it logically that things just weren't meant to be, but my heart still hasn't gotten the memo. It's just so weird; he was my only friend for so long and now I'm on my own. I know it's for the best but it's just a strange feeling.

Anyway, thanks Alvy and Alex.

[Alvy]

Keep your chin up. Now's the time when you can afford to be a bit selfish. There's plenty of opportunities to be old and boring in your 50s and 60s. Surely you must have a few acquaintances from school?. Hang out with them so you'll get the chance to have some social circle.