communication, trust, relationships

[msibuc]

hi.

i'll try to be as succinct as possible here, though believe that i should be at least somewhat descriptive so you have a reasonable sense of the situation.

i was in a relationship for about 1 yr. 3 mos., that finally ended after escalating frustration and fighting over some common themes. basically, our communication was often hampered by defensiveness and lack of empathy, it seemed. i would like to get a sense of what i could have done better. i'd also like to get some opinions on some scenarios. please bare with me.

early into the relationship (about 1.5 months), she and i went on vacation about 1000 miles away together (drove). she had to get back from where we were in about 1.5 days (and cut time with her sister that she has since "needed to spend extended periods with when the chance is there, even if that means not spending the holiday with you while you're sick after I've already spent a week with her" which i understand, though note the seeming inconsitency) to meet a "friend" she'd met on match.com (prior to meeting me, and she'd seen him maybe once before other than the emails) for a hike. she'd never invited me along for the hike. i figured that was fine since it was early in the relationship, though it seemed curious that we had to drive day and night to get back for her to meet this male friend she'd only emailed and seen once before. does my curiosity seem out of place or disporportionate? she had, btw, called it a "date" a couple of weeks before hand, and later called that a "joke" term she uses for "appointment", though i had never heard her use that term as a "joke" term for other "appointments" - that seemed like a poor choice of words for someone that probably got about 800 SAT verbal and could be an author.

at about 2.5 months into the relationship, when it seemed that we were mutually steady, my girlfriend and i were together one night in bed. i conversationally asked "whatcha up to tomorrow?" (saturday). she said "nothing, you?". we talked about it and other things. a few nights later, in conversation it came up that she went out for drinks with a guy she'd been out with a couple of times before "as friends". i think she had met him on line (match.com) before we started dating. and it turned out she knew she was probably going out with him before the casual "whatcha up to tonight?" conversation. i thought that was interesting and asked why she seemed to feel she had to hide it. she basically just said i was asking too many questions and seeming jealous. does it seem that way to you?

about 3 weeks later, she sent me an email that she was going out with "friends" to a concert (probably pretty late into the night) and was going to help one of the friends with a benefit 5k the next morning at about 5:30 or 6 am. i responded something like "great! good group?" i was admittedly a bit curious about the vague "friends" that came up again. it turned out that it would be with a guy she'd spoken well of frequently in the past, by name, and a friend of his. i thought it odd that she would have been vague about who it was when, by then, i knew him by name. again, does this seem odd to you?

maybe a month later (say, 4 months into the relationship), she told me she was "coming over" to my place for dinner, etc. that night. she never really pinned down a time, but said she would later. later in the day, she emailed me that she just might be staying home to clean, but would let me know once she decided which. she never let me know which, so i assumed she might be cleaning, but still wasn't sure. i called and left a voicemail asking her how she was doing and if she could call back re what she'd decided. no returned call. i called again maybe 1.5 hours later to ask if everything was OK and what was up. no returned call. i was then concerned, so went by to see if everything was ok. no response to knocks. later that day, i finally got ahold of her on the phone. it turned out she'd "stayed over" with a friend (female friend and her boyfriend) because she'd had some drinks. she'd never "stayed over" with friends before, and hasn't since. the friends were only a few blocks away from her place and she regularly walked those blocks with her dog (whom was with her that night) in the past, without any apparent preference for when - day or night. she first said she couldn't have known i was calling, but later said she had her cell with her and it was charged. again, she argued that i was just seeming jealous and she was concerned about my sense of trust and jealousy. by this point, i am definitely wondering what is going on. does that wondering seem irrational or unacceptable to you?

through all of this, she tended to be late (by typically between 10 and 45 minutes). i let the lateness slide for about 2 months, and finally said as levelly as possible, after raising my eyebrows and smiling "it could seem more considerate if you could try to be more on time, or at least call when you think you're going to be late". she got angry and said her cell was all the way in the back seat of her car so couldn't call, and that she was rarely late as it was and that i was sounding VERY condescending. in another instance, she said she'd be by at time A, then called about 20 minutes prior and said she might be as much as 15 minutes later than that. she eventually arrived 35 minutes after the original time (20 minutes after the "15 minute window" she'd suggested), and when i said something like "can you please try to be more conscientious of the these things - it's not like you weren't more than a half hour late", she said she wasn't that late, and accused me of exaggerating. i know i consider the first time i suggest i'll meet someone to be about when i shoot for, and that might be unusual, but didn't feel i was really exaggerating. what do you think?

She generally was reluctant to apologize until hours or days of discussion/arguement, though got better about that and the late thing after months of hashing it out.

She also tended to suspect that, when I'd ask things like "do you think things are ok with us?" when trying to get a sense of whether she might just be slower to warm up to relationships than i am, or that she wasn't sure about the relationship yet e.g., I was trying to "entrap" (her words) her into saying something incriminating. She also said that I have problems with trust (my curiosity about "why 'friends' all the time when I know these people by name, at least, through her talking about them? why am I rarely/never invited along with these 'friends'? is she seemingly blowing me off ('coming over' > 'maybe staying home but will let you know' - no returned phone calls) b/c she's not so sure about things?"). All the while she was telling me there is nothing wrong and she loves me.

She'd tend to argue and turn red, defending her actions every way she could, until I'd get angry and raise my voice, then she'd accuse me of being mean and temperamental. I admit that, after so much arguing and her defensiveness of the above types of things, I could get very angry and frustrated.

I know her mom, widowed when my girlfriend was in middle school, was relatively extremely hard on her with very exacting standards (though maybe not always very consistent, since she'd blow up at her daughter only to take it back later).

At about month 5 or 6, I started telling my girlfriend that I was getting close to the end of my rope with the seemingly invariable defensiveness and fighting, and it would probably break us up if it persisted. When it persisted, I would get so angry I'd tell her "that's it, I'm done with this" sometimes meaning "this fighting", others "this relationship". She'd always take it as "this relationship". The "this relationship" was intended the last few times I'd said something like that (as I was pretty angry and frustrated with the lack of sound communications, or at least progress towards them), though I would talk it out with her later and we'd make up. She now claims that I should never have taken her back the times that I'd reached the end of my rope, but we'd made up.

If you got through this, can someone please comment on the above and let me know what you think? Was it hopeless? Was I unreasonable? Was she unreasonable? Does it sound like there are things in the above that sound like only therapy could help them?

Thanks.

[msibuc]

i thought the wordiness of the post above was the only way to put things as fairly as possible for people to consider. i understand it might just be too much to get through. here's the abridged version:

relationship ended over some things that developed from the following.

month 2 or so: girlfriend wants to get back from a vacation 1000 miles away to meet guy for hike - we were driving and had 1.5 days to get back. she met him on match previous to meeting me, emailed with him, and hung out with him once. he was visiting our town for a festival from 2000 miles away. no invite for me to join, and it was referred to as a "date" before i asked "date?", to which she said she was joking. not a biggie to me - early in relationship.

month 3 or so: we're seemingly mutually steady. she makes plans to hang with a guy that i believe she had met on match previous to our meeting. she'd only hung out with him a few times that i can tell. with the opportunity to mention she was meeting him for a night out at the bars together ("i'd asked whatcha up to tonight?" she said "nothing. you?") she didn't mention this. i found this out later.

month 4 or so: she emails me saying she's going to a concert with "friends" until late, and then getting up at 5:30am to meet one of the friends for a charity event. turns out the "friend" is a guy she'd spoken well of and by name often. i thought it odd she referred to him vaguely as "friend" when i knew him by name, if not personally.

month 4 or 5: she says she's "coming over" for the night, but no definite time -will let me know. then emails and says "maybe staying home to clean, but will let you know". fine with me. i call later to find out which it'll be. no answer and no returned call. i call even later to find out if everythings alright. no answer, no returned call. the next day, she says she was staying with "friends" - never had "stayed over with friends", hasn't since, and had charged cel with her and never had problem walking the 3 blocks from her friends (girl-friend and girl-friend's beau's) back to her place, day or night, in the past.

for the first several months, almost invariably late by 10-45 min.. defensive when i finally asked if she could try to be better about that, calling me condescending and implying i was demanding.

was often suspicious that i was trying to "entrap" her when i asked her how she thought things were going with us before asking why she was so reticent about communicating some of the above things, including when she would be late and why she was reluctant to tell me who she was going out with.

she tended to get defensive about most things, be reluctant to apologize (for, e.g., being an hour late for something), and considered me mistrustful and overly angry. i did often get angry after months of such stuff, and raised my voice as the arguements about the above (and about "why all the arguements every time?") continued.

any thoughts or insights?

it would probably help to read the first post.

thanks.

[imokurnot]

Hmmm seems like she is playing you to me. Hard to know the complete dynamics in the relationship but if she cared she wouldn't be so defensive. If she really was into you she wouldn't be on Match.com. If she cared about you she wouldn't be so late and if so she would be curteous and call. She wouldn't be meeting guys or hanging out with new guys if she wasn't looking to make one fall for her and then she could leave you. That is just my opinion and you know your relationship better than anyone else.

I am learning the hard way right now that I need to be more aware of the signals and get out before it goes to deep and I get burned. The problem is being honest with yourself for you already know the behavior is unacceptable. Your ego or fear of being alone is keeping you in this relationship. You write well and seem intelligent enough that I trust you know what is going on. With the intelligence displayed I trust you know and will do the right thing.

[msibuc]

thanks for the reply and the thoughts. she was not on match.com (that i know of) while we were together, even early on. the guys she was meeting were, according to her, "old friends" and nothing more. it felt strange that she felt such a need to meet "old friends" that she'd only seen a few times, though.

if you read the whole post, you pretty much have a sense of the dynamics for most of the relationship.

do you think it was too much for me to usually be hoping she might divulge who the "friend" was she was seeing or had seen? does that seem too jealous? i do feel like it would have been different if she told me who it was and, more often than not, invited me along - looking for the trends, not a rule, but she seemed to see it otherwise. anyhow, is that too much to expect?

what do you think about that "coming over" > "maybe staying home, but will let you know" > no returned calls of mine > "stayed with friends" deal? am i paranoid, here, or does that seem odd? i did question her a bit when she referred to the "hike with the match guy" as a "date" (which she claimed was a joke for "appointment"), and i did ask her why she didn't tell me she was going to a bar with a guy when she had the chance to tell me ("whatcha up to tonight?" "nothing, you?"). can you think of a reason for her to then feel she needed to hide things from me?

i know some people can just tend to be late. do you think that and the other stuff points to lack of caring?

i was often trying very hard to be patient with this stuff and trying to talk it out early on, but after several months of it, we'd get pretty angry and it'd get pretty ugly. for that, i feel regret and would do it differently, but can't imagine not getting frustrated with it.

what do you think?

thanks again.

[emanresu]

This sounds quite difficult.

[imokurnot]

I think you are well within your rights to ask about the behavior and to be jealous under the circumstances. Jeal;ous is usually a no no but in this case she isn't being fair at all. You are being very nice, maybe too nice. You have to have some respect for yourself or she never will be able to respect you. If she loses respect for you, you will never get anything more out of the relationship than you have right now. Stand your ground, be firm, but be respectful and nice about it. Break it off or whatever and don't get too emotional about the situation in front of her. Tell her you like her etc. but just don';t think it is going the right way for you currently. That's just my opinion so don't take it with anything more than a grain of salt, but you need to get some control back or lose yourslef in relationship and it won't help the relationship or any other part of your life believe me.

Good Luck!

[blackiesharley]

I would be concerned as well as pissed off. She's not showing you much respect. Mixed signals, red flags, maybe it's just me and my new "Zero Bullshit Tolerence" policy, but I'd back off, maybe look around for someone else, and keep her at arms length. See what moves she makes.

Having said that, and I should learn to take my own advice, but I'm really confused about my situation. Read 'Stood up on Xmas,' my post on this board. I need opinions.

Good luck to all of us.

Blackie

[msibuc]

I think you are well within your rights to ask about the behavior and to be jealous under the circumstances. Jeal;ous is usually a no no but in this case she isn't being fair at all. You are being very nice, maybe too nice. You have to have some respect for yourself or she never will be able to respect you. If she loses respect for you, you will never get anything more out of the relationship than you have right now. Stand your ground, be firm, but be respectful and nice about it. Break it off or whatever and don't get too emotional about the situation in front of her. Tell her you like her etc. but just don';t think it is going the right way for you currently. That's just my opinion so don't take it with anything more than a grain of salt, but you need to get some control back or lose yourslef in relationship and it won't help the relationship or any other part of your life believe me.

Good Luck!

thanks. i agree re: be as nice as possible and respectful.

FYI - the relationship ended 3 months ago. we still talk a lot and say "i love you" and i do hope we can get it together eventually and possibly get some counseling.

yes, i tried to be respectful and nice. she rather persistently tried to reinterpret the past like i was at least as guilty as her for slights and inconsideration (she'd bring up the one or two times I was 5 or 10 minutes late, e.g., or claim hat i was inconsiderate of her feelings at times that i know i had tried being quite careful about making sure i was doing what she told me worked for her, e.g.), and that felt extremely unfair, and i reacted. as she persisted, i'd occasionally get so blunt as to tell her what a bitch she was being and even got right in her face a couple of times, pointed my finger right at her, and told her in no uncertain terms that i had had enough of the word games (she was very verbally astute - probably nearly 800 SAT verbal in 1991, talented and very particular writer, could be a tough lawyer if her memory wasn't so selective kind of verbally astute). i even accidentally slapped her once(faux open handedly swiped my hand in "feigned" -very real actually - frustration and caught her jaw by accident in the dark at like 3 am during yet another episode with us) - i was shocked as i've never been in a fight or so much as pushed someone before, and she was understandably mortified. so, anyhow, please don't let me fool you into thinking i was just plain sweet and nice all the time - i was outraged and didn't hide it sometimes and made at least that one mistake, while others would include telling her in no minced words that she was just being a bitch at the moment, even though i would let her know i loved her otherwise.

with that in mind, thoughts are welcome.

thanks.

[msibuc]

I would be concerned as well as pissed off. She's not showing you much respect. Mixed signals, red flags, maybe it's just me and my new "Zero Bullshit Tolerence" policy, but I'd back off, maybe look around for someone else, and keep her at arms length. See what moves she makes.

Having said that, and I should learn to take my own advice, but I'm really confused about my situation. Read 'Stood up on Xmas,' my post on this board. I need opinions.

Good luck to all of us.

Blackie

yeah, good luck.

my tendency was to take what i was seeing as "bullshit" for a little bit, try to understand it and let herknow i was trying, and as it persisted to steadily become more and more no-nonsense. she wouldn't get where i was coming from even then, most times, and, like what i said above, got too angry a couple of times (many months into the relationship, but i probably should have just walked as opposed to getting so angry - she clearly wasn't getting the point after months of trying to convey it).

anyhow, seems good to be careful of the "zero b.s." policy - we're all human is how i see it. yet, i personally hope for some fairness at some point from the partner. guess i'm more "zero perpetual bullshit"

thanks and take care. feel free to let me kow what you think of these or my previous post to imokurnot. i'll take a peek at the stood-up-for-Xmas post of yours.

[sfalexi]

Sounds like you guys just aren't a good match. You're one for punctuality, she's clearly not (and it annoys you, and will continue to annoy you for as long as it happens), you're one for sticking to whatever word you've given, she seems to be flexible to changing plans without letting you know, you're one that returns calls and can be gotten a hold of, she's not, etc. etc.

Just seems to me like you guys aren't compatible and probably won't be.

Alexi

[msibuc]

i accidentally sent this twice. sorry about that. please see the following post. btw - please keep in mind while you're reading it that i appreciate your perspective and do not want to minimize it. i just know that this medium can make it difficult to see and feel out the whole picture so i just want to know what you think as i clarify.

thanks so much for your input - it definitely helps as i think about it and my own contributions to things.

[msibuc]

Sounds like you guys just aren't a good match. You're one for punctuality, she's clearly not (and it annoys you, and will continue to annoy you for as long as it happens), you're one for sticking to whatever word you've given, she seems to be flexible to changing plans without letting you know, you're one that returns calls and can be gotten a hold of, she's not, etc. etc.

Just seems to me like you guys aren't compatible and probably won't be.

Alexi

hey, alexi.

thank you for the thoughts.

the thing that keeps getting to me is that i wonder if her behavior might be passive-aggressive/obsessive compulsive personality disroder types of things. i have looked at the DSM4 (psych. manual) and her behavior fits the bill pretty much to a T for both. her upbringing was nearly impossible (and i've seen how that could be when i've visited her mom, e.g. - VERY harsh in ways and her mom seems to have abused her verbally and emotionally and can be very selfish, though not very consistent [will be very harsh and demanding, then take it back when she cools off], and my ex described all of this to me independently). i also recognize (more so now that i've looked around at some of the psych. literature and spoken with some people - friends, family, counselor, forums) that my handling of her behavior was contributing to it, to some extent. so it seems to me that with what i've learned, at least, things could go better (if not always well), and that a more objective perspective (like a counselor's, not her friends' or family's) could just help her see how others see her behavior.

it also might help to note that i generally don't worry too much about occasional lateness (even of 1-7 hours, as the case sometimes was with her), occasional forgetfulness about my needs, etc.. i can be guilty of the same sometimes, and know we're all human. it happened so regularly, though, that i finally would say things about it, which was nearly invariably met by extreme (relative to what i've ever experienced before) defensiveness, lack of empathy and understanding, and repeated similar responses to when i'd try to discuss it (even, sometimes, removed from the incidences and any apparent moods). it's THAT that bothered me.

what do you think of it with that context? what do you think of the incidences i described (e.g., the "coming over" > "maybe not, but will let you know" > not letting me know > not returning calls > "i couldn't have known you were calling" in this context > then later "i had my cell and it was charged" all the while she hadn't, and hasn't since, "stayed over with friends" or felt the need to not walk the couple of blocks back to her place after a movie at friends)?

thanks very much for your perspective. i look forward to more.

[Junket]

I don't know why you wanted my thoughts on this but I wasn't patient enough to read your post.

[Fawn]

Well, lets see.
To the original post: I understand that you would be a bit jealous. Though, I think at the start you should have actually told her that you were feeling a bit jealous of her going out with these friends. I understand you would be a little worried when she is on match.com after the fact that you too are together. I would probably go to the site and look at her profile and see if its just looking for friends. If not, thats a deffinite answer there.

Since your having so many arguments already this is a sign that you both can't really trust each other or atleast have a normal conversation. She should have been more open to start with. So its understandable that your concerned. You just need to tell her your thoughts and feelings. Try rationally talking to her instead of arguing throughout the situation. If things can't be talked out normally, I would probably suggest that maybe she isn't the right person for you.

[King Zarathu]

Wow.. so much typing

there's no way in hell i'm reading all of that shit!