Sorry guys, I broke all the rules and really messed up!

[Tonia2]

Arrived, and as soon as he got there, I knew I wasn’t really coping. I felt defensive and uncomfortable, while he was quite stand-offish at first. He said that he didn’t feel differently yet, and that he didn’t want me to have false hopes. I told him that I would really struggle to have any kind of friendship with him, but while the door was left open I would like to keep seeing me.

He said he was very anxious not to have me in the same position as I have been for the last six months, and that he would rather not see me than let me cling to false hope. But he won’t decisively say that he won’t feel differently. He said that the last 3 weeks have been totally surreal, with him showering at work and begging sofas off friends, so he hasn’t had time to reflect.

We went to the gig, and there were times when I had to hide my face with my hair as I was just weeping. He ended up coming home, and with a cup of coffee on the sofa he pulled me towards him and held me while I cried. He said he really loves me and cares about me, and that he as really missed me. He also asked if he could sleep next to me, and I stupidly let him. One thing lead to another and it was tender and very nice. He held me all night and was extremely loving towards me, without giving me any false hope. He said that he had really missed me and that he hopes he will feel differently when he moves back to his flat (tomorrow) but at the same time, he was talking about telling his folks about the break-up, etc.

We had breakfast together this morning and walked to the tube – he is still really tactile – kissing my forehead, putting his arm around me. We went our separate ways, and he said he would email me about seeing each other again, but he said he was confused, because last night I had told him I probably couldn’t see him as a mate. I want to tell him that I want to keep seeing him until he can tell me decisively that there is no hope – I would be able to do that to him, why can’t he tell me? Is that a fair arrangement? Am I fooling myself and letting myself in for a whole lot more hurt? The one thing I do know is that although we had some very poignant, loving times in the night, my performance will not have left him much to go away with. He will not be thinking that I am an independent, funky chick.

I don’t think I can let him go at the moment, so any suggestions on what I can do to minimise the damage? He even said to me on the way to the tube this morning, that he always wants what he can’t have. That aint me at the moment sadly – I was about the biggest sure thing that you could imagine! I did say that the one thing I couldn’t bear was ambivalence, and I felt like he was ready to let our friendship go quite easily (see beginning of post) and he said that was nonsense, he just doesn’t want to hurt me anymore. He left with assurances that he will really think about what he might lose – but is it too late? I feel like a failure.

[C1d6OC]

Tonia, I don't want you to ever think of this as a failure. It is experience. I can almost guarantee that if I went somewhere with my ex, I would have done the same. It's not easy being in the position you were in. I would have wanted to touch her, to be close with her and I know that I would have let my guard down. Don't take this as a failure, because then you will continue to be down on yourself. The best thing to do is lift yourself up off the floor and continue to do what you were doing. Go back to how you were when you first were talking to us. You had strength and we all admired it. You may think you're in a different position, but in reality, it's no different than before. Letting go of someone is HARD and believe me, it's even harder when you see them.

Everything you did that night was not wrong. No way, it's not like you begged for him back, you were just upset. So what? If he gets the wrong idea, then he has to deal with it. I don't believe there was any damage done, and therefore I don't think you need to minimize it. Understand that there is no wrong or right to what you did. You let your guard down, but that's only because you care about this guy so much. You could have been a complete b**ch all night, but you weren't. Life is too short to keep worrying about these things. Remember, that I believe that there is a reason for everything and if things are meant to be in the future, one way or another it will end up that way. These events just help secure what your future will be (if that makes any sense). In any case, you know we're all here for you. You did your best and that's all that matters. Keep me posted.

Cdoc

[Tonia2]

You are a sweetheart, you really are. I feel much more positive now, and you are absolutley right. If you really want to be kept posted, these are the emails from today... think I am being a bit weak, but keen to be honest with him, after quite a lot of games, let me know what you think? They start at the bottom and go up. The consistency thing is weird, I know, but I do feel that it has to be an investment in us, or nothing... am I getting this across? How things have changed...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok. I can do Thursday. That would be nice. I’m sorry if it sounds ‘planny’. Could you try to be as flexible and thoughtful as you can at the moment, as I am struggling with all of this? I am trying.



What about the rest of what I said?



-----Original Message-----




No g was fine today - it was nice to meet up with him.

"sustained contact or none at all" sounds quite 'planny' to me. I'm getting a bit confused here - why dont we use up these cinema complimentaries I still have to see a film together next wed or thu after work and take it from there?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh of course – the g… was he a bit more communicative, rather than the monologue?



I have just missed having you around, you know. As my mate above all. That is what makes this all so hard – there were moments last night when I just loved being in your funny, entertaining company – regardless of all the other stuff.



Not making a plan sounds ok – you are probably right – all this torturous analysis is doing both of our heads in and takes away the fun and spontaneity in our relationship – whatever that might be. The trouble for me is that I need some kind of consistency, you know – I can’t make the jump from what we had to casual mates very easily. Like I said to you, the one thing that hurts more than anything is when you seem willing to sacrifice our relationship/friendship rather than take the responsibility of maybe hurting me, but giving any potential we may have a shot. (when I say that, I am not deluding myself that we are in a relationship at the moment – I just abide by the wait and see what happens when you are out of that surreal situation you have been in for the past 3 weeks). Do you understand that?



By consistency I mean that I need to have sustained contact with you or none at all probably – can you do that? I would also like to see you reasonably soon in a neutral, fun setting where I can be myself more, without the angst that built up in the intervening weeks when we weren’t seeing or speaking to each other. That will make it more natural I think, and I would like to have fun with you again. Last night was laden with pathos, what with Damien Rice whinging in the background and seven vodkas down the throwat. I enjoyed it though and I felt close to you. I had missed that.



-----Original Message-----




Hi sweetheart,

Sorry I did mean to email you earlier but other things happened and I forgot so no need to feel cut adrift. Last night was good - thank you for finally agreeing to come along. Band were very unusual and very good and also I was pretty bladd*red which always helps as well. I didn't think you were high maintenance at all - in fact I was very pleased with the way you handled things which are no doubt difficult at the moment. I liked holding you - felt nice. I have just come back from lunch with G which was good. Fish and chips to feed my lingering hangover - nice. What to do from here? - not sure really - don't feel I particularly want to make a plan do you? Are you comfortable with that?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi D



I am not sure whether I am waiting for an email from you? I tried to call you earlier. It would be nice to know your thoughts, as I am not quite sure how we left things, and after a pretty nice night last night, I feel a little cut adrift, you know?



Thanks for coming along and I hope I wasn’t too high maintenance. I am glad you stayed.



The band were pretty wicked too, I thought. Hope your day is going well and might try to give you a call later if you don’t get this.



Thanks

[misombra]

cdoc, your name reads like a star wars android!

but i agree with you.

[C1d6OC]

Ok. After reading the emails, I have a couple of suggestions. I have to be honest and thank you for keeping me posted. You do sound a bit weak, but that's ok. You're not overboard. I'm very glad that he seems to be understanding and well as you can plainly see, he didn't think you were high maintenance at all. So that is a good sign. My suggestions are as follows.

Making plans is ok, but just try to remember that it was tough on you and you had happy moments, but you were upset also. I don't want to see you do that to yourself again. He doesn't understand the No Contact rule, because his head is not thinking like yours. It's good that you said this, because it is on your terms. It's obvious that he wants to continue contact or he wouldn't have suggested meeting up with you again. I also compliment on the fact that you said you couldn't just adjust going from mates to friends. Again, this is on your terms. Having said that, you are absolutely right for wanting a more fun environment. It will help you more. Work on building that strength again and maybe I would suggest extending it a bit more than Thursday for two reasons.
1. See what he says
2. Give yourself more time to heal.
I'm not saying to do this as a test, but this could help to see things a bit more clear. And it shows that you're not relying on his time, but yours. That is one suggestion.

My second suggestion is that to make yourself seem busy, even if you're not. I'm not sure how often you read emails or reply to them. But I wouldn't reply to his right away. Depending on how your next meeting with him goes, discussing this no contact or sustained contact thing, I might consider not replying to his emails at all.

I just want you to know that although you may appear a bit weak, your words are very strong and they're getting through. I have to say that in general, with the state that you're in, you are doing absolutely fine. I hope these suggestions help you.

btw...misombra - I like that comment. star wars...lol

Cdoc

[cycletease]

Tonia,
You need to stop beating yourself up. You know that this way of thinking is totally counterproductive and is also senseless. You are such a sweet person and so emotionally honest, how can you blame yourself for following your heart? Anyone who would criticize you for that is a fool...including you.

Let's talk about what happened. You saw the man whom you are in love with and haven't seen in a couple of weeks. You were honest with him about where you are at, he was honest with you. You still have a broken heart and he is still undecided. The position has not changed. No damage.

Everyone on this forum could have told you that seeing him was not going to fix the situation. You, yourself, knew that nothing would be healed. We all know this because everyone of us has broken no contact (many times) and slept with our exes! For better or worse we have all been there and you are actually following a normal path.

My take on the future? I am worried. I feel that you are lining yourself up for some more heart break. As much as you want to continue seeing him, I feel that it is a mistake. I know you don't want to give up on him and I know you don't want to let go. Unfortunately it is not all your decision. The longer you keep trying to force this to work, clinging to hope that he will suddenly realize his errors and pick you, the more painful this is going to be for you.

I know you are sick of the game. You didn't make the game, though. If you want this guy, even though he doesn't seem to want to make things work, then you will have to play it. That means you will have to play hard to get. Don't want to play? Good, then cut off contact and move on with your life. No? Then play on but note that you will actually have to play.

So back to the original plan then. NO contact. NO date on thursday. No emails, no texting, no calls. HE CANNOT BE THE ONE WHO COMFORTS YOU IF HE IS THE ONE BREAKING YOUR HEART. It does not work. I am sorry. I am so so sorry. I know just how you feel, sweetie. I really know the pain and it tears me up that you are having to go through this.

You can disregard everything and continue on your path with this and I won't blame you one bit or be angry. But you are here asking for advice and I am telling it to you straight. Your heart is lying to your head. You don't have perspective right now and you are feeling really down. This is normal but this doesn't mean that you are incapable of correcting that. No matter how down you feel and how weakened you may be I believe in you and KNOW that you can do the right thing for yourself.

While I would rather see you behaving constructively right now and taking care of you, I am here to listen to you no matter what. I will say the same things over again as many times as you need to here it.

The sheer strength of your will and your love for this guy cannot change anything. You need to give up. I am sorry, but you do. When you have you will be able to better come to terms with things.

I am thinking of you, please keep posting up so I know how you are doing.

[Tonia2]

And I am still messing up… I would hate you all to think that I haven’t taken your brilliant advice on board, but sadly we are human and keep using that big stick to beat ourselves with, don’t we? I spent the weekend looking after my granny who has had a double knee replacement, while he moved back to his old (lovely) flat that he moved out of to let out while he moved in with me. I ended up hounding him a few times over the weekend with messages and calls, as I knew that he was moving his final stuff out of my flat, and it hurt.

I got the impression that it was irritating him, and man what bad timing. You know, he was excited about his flat and very busy, and I was just being whiny and pathetic on the phone. I just felt so redundant now that he was back on his feet – like I was there for him when he was made redundant, and there for him when he needed somewhere to live. But that he hadn’t truly been happy with any of what I offered him. Anyway, it got into a reasonably unpleasant discussion, with him saying he cared about me and loved me but didn’t want to discuss things again and again.

He called back and apologised – then called later to play me something that used to be an ‘in joke’ of ours, to try to cheer me up. I know he is doing his best, and I think that my panic is part of my ‘letting go’ process. Its hard, you know, thinking he is moving on and I am stuck. It is essentially the first time I have lived alone, as my bro is away for 4 weeks and I am very lonely – plus my head tells me to do stupid things when I have been dwelling on something for hours – I’m sure we all know that one. He said that he is finding it hard, but not as hard as me…

Anyway, about his proposal to go to the cinema. My new friend at work has suggested that she come with us. Do you think this is a good idea? I know that the only way to redeem myself now is to be cool and light-hearted and fun to be with. And I know that this is going to be really hard and hurt like f*ck, but I need to do it for myself and for any future that I may be able to salvage with him. He is going to be getting very lonely in his little ivory tower once the novelty wears off, and I want to stick around until that happens – it is my last chance. I brought everything to our life – friends, family, entertainment – plus we were best friends. He has got to feel that quite soon… especially as I know that my next few weeks are taken up with friends and stuff.

If I have my friend there, not only does it appear to change my agenda (that I am not treating it like a ‘date’, misguidedly) he might also be disappointed? And she can stop me doing something dumb.

Conversely, I am worried that this will destroy our intimacy and stop us having any conversations we might need to – although this might not be the time, and after I have been pretty heavy every time I have spoken to him, perhaps it is time to lighten up with him? He also offered for me to use his off-road parking over this week (as my residents permit has run out), so he is not ready to let go completely. I know that people’s advice is probably not to see him at all – but I just don’t think I am strong enough for that yet. Any advice? I know that sleeping with your ex is such a big cliché, but do you think it may have meant anything to him? He said he liked holding me in his email the next day.

I am aware I sound desperate, and a bit pathetic, but I think we have all been there? I can never thank you all enough for your help – you know who you are! I hope I never have to repay the favour, but I would happily in spades if I had half your wisdom…

One big thing in my favour is that i know he still really fancies me (especially as I have lost about 10kilos). He said on the phone on Saturday morning that he didn't know how much he wanted me until he started to stroke my hair. And i know that he really did want me...

[Tonia2]

hmm... hows this guys? i think the tone is better... I also got a missed call i think because i let a lot of time elapse between his email and mine? C1D60C - you are on i think, and always full of wisdom! I may be clutching at straws, but sometimes it is fun hatching games... and whatever gets you through the day, eh?

Hi,
Yes thanks... I'm cool. They had the guy whose wife left him for the gardener there - the one they were trying to hook me up with at the comedy club. They are a sweet couple - cats and cosy house and so good to people. They have let him stay for 2 weeks.

My new best chum j asked me to go to see XXX (film) on Thursday at the XXX. I was wondering whether you would mind if she came to (other cinema with us) instead, as the film has been cancelled? Let me know - she is cool and northern and you will like her plus shes new in town from (city). I am glad your flat is so great and that you are feeling settled. Can you let me know if this gets through to your hotmail, and I will stop using other account.

-----Original Message-----


hi, you ok today? how was f's last night?

[C1d6OC]

Well Tonia, after reading this most recent post I will just say that you are absolutely right. You are human. Remember what I said, things happen for a reason. I want to give you advice that you will use, but then again I want to give it to you in the nicest way possible, so here goes. You are going to have to break the contact again. Might I make a suggestion that you go back to your first thread and read over how strong you were. Read what people had to say and how admiring you were. Honestly, you have helped me so much, because the more I come on here and type, I read your story and believe it or not, it helped me with how to deal with my situation. That being said, coming on here and reading this makes me feel for you that much more, because as we both know it is NOT EASY. Especially when our exes say things that make us "think" and give us "hope". Your decision to have a friend come along is brilliant. This way you are right, it will be more fun and light-hearted and casual. However, you have to not doubt this decision. Despite how he feels. Humans want what they can't have. With you bringing a friend along, he might feel like you're doing fine again. Even if he does get upset or angry. That's not the point. The point is that you did this for yourself and it has to stay that way. At this point, staying away from him will be hard and I'll tell you why. Recently, you've kept with the contact and you feel that it should be there. Don't Worry. Remember, I believe that it's never too late to fix things. You are taking the steps gradually by inviting this friend. I would stick with that and then take the next step to possibly not answer his calls right away. Try to keep busy and appear busy.

With regard to sleeping with your ex. Wow. That's a toughy. We can never read anyone's head and unfortunately, it's best not to figure that out. However, I'm almost positive that you saying that he has been a great guy to you and understands, of course it meant something. But for your own good, please don't do it again. The less you make yourself vulnerable, the happier you will be.

My point to you is that you have to and will be strong again. Ultimately it's up to you to build that strength and you know I'm here to help in any way I can. As always, I look forward to hear about your situation.

Cdoc

[Tonia2]

The less you make yourself vulnerable, the happier you will be.

Very very true... I am sooo good at maintaining the n/c, or ignoring his calls as long as it is on my terms or I have initiated it. The minute he starts to cool off again, I get panicky and act stupidly. That has to be as good a reason as any to be very cautious about answering his calls/ speaking to him.

I do so desperately want him to see me confident and appearing happy, with my new friend. I want him to see that my life goes on (she is cool too - he will like her). Like I said, he even said to me that if I let go, he perhaps wouldn't want to. I think that was as near him telling me to play hard to get as possible.

I do want to keep seeing him for a bit - certainly in this type of situation, as he needs to remember what he fell in love with, not a miserable, weepy girl. But the statistics aint good, and I know that. It is so rarely that I read on this board of scheming and tactics actually working. I just think that he hasn't necessarily been as decisive about us ending as others. Remember he also told me that he would take lots of time to make a proper decision if he did decide that he had made a mistake.

I am aware I sound desperate, forgive me for that - I guess I am a bit. I am also moving on, definitely. Acceptance will probably come quite soon - he has done his move now, and he always said that would be the only time he might have regrets - so I can only realistically give him a couple more weeks to realise his error. I know that. Sorry - ranting and rambling now... thanks again for the nice comments.

[Tonia2]

Sorry to bug you all... ignored 2 phone calls and then he called me on my work line - asked if I had been avoiding him. I felt a bit cornered to be honest. He suggested several different things and tried to get me to go to a special director's Q & A tomorrow night. I said I had plans (and on Friday night). He said it might be a bit weird if I brought my friend along (the cinema we were going to is 'our' cinema - we used to have a lot of dates there and stuff). I asked if I could talk to him about it all later. What do we make of these new developments? I will leave it until late to call him I think.

[cycletease]

I am going to be the voice in your ear that you don't want to listen to: DO NOT see him.

Tonia, you know this and because of this you are clawing your fingernails in and hanging on desperately. That is not a power position. You cannot win in any situation with a desperate sort of mindset and certainly not in this one.

While I know that you are resolute in following your chosen course, I feel that as a friend I have to lay out my view here so that at least you have to opportunity to hear it. Seeing him and talking to him at all right now is a disaster. Even if you are in perfect, cheerful mode it is a bad move. Answering his calls, wanting to see him even after he has dumped you, having him comfort you when he is breaking your heart...this is not good. You cannot have what you want right now. You certainly can't be friends with him and have him come around to wanting you as more than that.

You are a strong woman, even if you don't see it in yourself. I admire how resolutely you have hung onto this guy. You love him and don't want to let go and nothing can dissuade you from that path. That is admirable about you and certainly more than this guy deserves at the moment, no matter how nice he may be.

BUT, your sheer force of will cannot change facts and cannot change him. Just because you really want to see him does not mean it will change the way he feels about you. Just because you reeeeeally don't want to let go does not mean that you can will it to be the correct course.

When my ex boyfriend and I broke up I really expected that at some point we would get back together... I would give him time to get his shit together and things would eventually work out. Sadly, things didn't happen that way. He bombarded me with phone calls, visits at all hours of the night when he was breaking down emotionally, he got a job at my work to be nearer to me (which was disastrous), sent me flowers constantly and eventually took to begging. He exhausted me with his neediness and it got to the point that I could not even look at him. I was always kind and supportive, as I cared for him a lot. But now, after 5 years, I still cringe when he calls.

I know exactly how it feels to be desperate to talk to the person you love, I know that it feels like you are going out of your mind. I know that your mind will talk you into reasons to contact them. I know just how you feel and I also know that you have to resist.

I am going to say my piece here and be finished on this subject and you can take it or leave it.

1) You need to break your movie date with him
2) Tell him that you are sorry, that although you would love to see him during this time, it is too hard for you and that you really need space.
3) Do not call, do not arrange dates, do not check in, do not set future dates to torture yourself with
4) Give yourself a break and stop beating up on yourself about this situation
5) Bolster yourself back up so that you have some perspective on this situation. You need to see that him breaking things off because he doesn't want to commit is a violation of you and your relationship and trust that you have built. And while you may still love him that you deserve more from a person than that.

Now, I have said my piece and I don't have any expectation that you will listen but I feel that I have done my part here. I want you to be happy and I am really worried about you. Your mindset doesn't sound good. Please keep me posted on what's going on, I won't be upset that you break the "rules".

[C1d6OC]

Tonia, Excellent job. Let him feel that way. Regardless if it's wierd, I still think you should bring her. Good job on the honsety. It's best, and despite what he says, it will all help you out.

About the new developments it already sounds like your building that inner strength you had and what makes it better is that you are doing it all while speaking to him. This is the most direct and hardest way. This is the gradual way as I mentioned. You are in a great position, because you are being strong despite how much you are torn up inside. I'm proud of you. Keep it up.

Cdoc

[Tonia2]

Thank you two again for your advice. Am I coming across as needy as your ex, cycletease? He is the one that is initiating contact with me today - he even called my work number, which I had to answer as I work in an open-plan office. I would love to say that I am going to take your advice, and I would hate to be annoying you by posting stuff here that disregards it. I am off to see my therapist tomorrow morning very early, and will run this by her too - she has known me for 4 years, so knows me pretty well. I am sure she will endorse what you say.

I take what you say on board totally - what do you think he wants from me? I remember him saying that it was really weird that his ex-wife wanted to go to the cinema with him, so why is he trying to initate the same with me? I am young, dumb and naive, and probably making lots of mistakes, but I am pretty confused.

[cycletease]

Of course you are confused! This is a completely muddled situation which confuses an outsider...much less the people who are closest to the situation. You are doing great, you are asking advice, seeing a therapist and trying your best to get some perspective on this situation. You are going the best that you can, even with a broken heart.

Being so close to this situation and having your broken heart screaming at you all the time makes it really difficult to know the right thing to do. Normally you would be able to listen to your instincts but in this situation they are going to guide you astray. As such, I am just trying to give you a voice of reason to try to help balance that.

You have to understand that your guy is confused also. He isn't sure what he wants...he loves you but is unsure if he wants to buy in. I am sure that he still likes your company and misses you since he is used to you. The problem is that he is used to you. I am not surprised that he is calling. I also believe firmly that it doesn't improve your position at all that he does. His calls should not make you feel hopeful since he, himself, has admitted that nothing has changed. If his feelings haven't changed, and your relationship hasn't changed (in that you still see him and he still calls) where exactly are you going to get this big kick in the ass that is supposed to bring him around?

I don't know if your ex is seeing you as desperate...only he knows. But you have admitted that you feel that you are being clingy, if you feel it then you can bet that he does. That is the last thing that you want.

Another thing to think about that may not hold true in this case: when I ended things with my ex I spent a lot of time doing things with him to ease the break-up on him. I was worried about him and wanted him to be ok. He would want to do things and I would agree to go to make him feel better. I realized later that it was just making it harder for him and I pretty much cut off contact on my end. I would still take his calls and talk to him during his crisis about the break-up. It was very emotionally draining for me but I was just trying to help him. If he had handled things differently it may have been different for me. I asked him to leave me alone for a couple of months but he would not. The more I needed my space the more he demanded of me, the more he called...he drove me crazy.

I am not trying to put you in this category, I am just wanting to show you worst case scenario. I don't want you to make mistakes you don't have to make.

You are not annoying me at all. I know just where you are at. I also know that friends who come and ask advice and then choose to do the opposite often feel uncomfortable asking for advice again. I just wanted you to know that no matter what you have someone hear who cares and is willing to listen.

Good luck with the therapist tomorrow. Talk fast 'cause you've got a lot to tell her!