Getting back together, unable to "discuss" simple issues.

[fillet]

Right, hi there not been to a forum like this before. The below might appear a little strange as it started off as me typing down a few things to get through the cloud of our problem, so I've just edited names, the rest is me just typing my thoughts as they come out. Hope it somewhat explains the situation of our problem.

Bit of background...

I'm male, had been in semi serious relationship with ex partner who had a boy aged 3 when split for a couple of years. Typical bad relationship, no "talking", I didn't pull my weight in terms of tasks a male might be expected to do and so forth, I had commitment issues - basically, we didn't really bother with addressing the bad stuff. We split under some very traumatic circumstances but have since (2.5 years later) plucked up the courage to "have a drink" together, which took place about 5 weeks ago. Since then we have got on really well, discussed all the deep stuff and it's been a real breath of fresh air to see a side to her that I couldn't before, compassion, sentiment, caring and so on.

However, approximately a week ago we suddenly had a big fall out over literally nothing. Basically she has a few skeletons in terms of image/being disrespected (not from myself) but because she is a single mother/childhood not great, but not terrible. Has had generally negative backlash from any interaction on a deep level with those of opposite sex, not abuse or anything but where they have basically just left her (step father, father of child etc). She's a very strong person and openly admits she only "lives for her son". She sees no positive future due to debt, no source of funds, very few babysitters and all the obvious things that come from being a single mum with a useless father who pays no child support and refuses to see his son.

(sorry if sounding clinical, but would be here all day otherwise )

Anyway, back to the point, a week ago we had just finished a long day of painting her son's bedroom and were having a pleasant evening when the following happened.

1. I went on facebook, saw on a person's profile a photo that made me laugh.
2. Said to partner "have you seen this?"
3. Partner says "no I'm not friends with her"
4. Me "No I'm not really either just someone knew in school (who partner also vaugely knew)"
5. Partner "Why would you have friends on facebook who you're never going to talk to?" (spoken in accusing tone)
6. Me "I don't know, why not, everyone does, you do too" (spoken in friendly tone)
7. Partner "No I don't, I could talk to any of them". (clearly not true but hardly relevant or important)
8. Me, I pause for a moment and suddenly think to myself, "hang on why is she giving me this negative off hand tone when I was being friendly showing her an amusing photo"
9. Me, "What's your problem I was just showing you some photo of something and you give me that!" (spoken in accusing tone)
10. Partner, "Sorry" (spoken in most insulting fake tone imaginable)

...At this point I feel quite upset as have spent best part of the day painting with her, I say nothing more on the situation and assume that the situation will just pass as it wasn't a big deal and I don't hold a grudge in my mind. However over the next 45-60 minutes it becomes clear that at some point during the exchange I have deeply insulted her as she has become icy to the point of not talking or anything at all, and then says "I'm going bed, what are you doing?". Obviously I'm taken aback by this, it's the first negative interchange we've had since we met again 4 weeks prior. I genuinely have no idea whatsoever why she is annoyed/upset/angry. I only sense anger and irritatedness from her, but it's quite strong.

We go to bed, and it might as well be the north pole relatively, she's on one side I'm on the other...etc.

After a few mins, I say "can we talk", she says "I don't want an argument"...this was her cliche the first time round. Obviously neither of us want an argument but by saying that it's suggestive that I want one - I only want to resolve what happened, understand her point of view and apologies if approprite....




Right the following is basically me writing down my thoughts....Suffice to say, that night we had a massive argument over this, she just wouldn't talk. She has this deep belief that I wish to analyse everything. In reality it's because I never know what is wrong because she refuses to tell me, but is quite happy to give me the negative emotions that come with "a problem", leaving me to mess around in the dark with no help.


(names changed)


Analysing when no need in Amy’s opinion
Reason, analyse when something is wrong in terms of connection/bad vibe/awkward tension when don’t know the source of this tension. Want to find source as it is always because of miscommunication, either I misinterpret Amy or she misinterprets me which creates the negative aura. My seeking of source annoys Amy because she thinks the issue is too small to matter, this creates further tension because the “issue” isn’t even a real thing, it’s that a miscommunication has taken place hence the need to correct it.
Sources of this miscommunication…
Patronising tone, insults, belittling and sarcastic tone.
Dave finds Amy is generally quite sarcastic and will often be sarcastic to the point of making light of Dave’s weaknesses, past behaviour, past issues or other things that he is looking to improve for the better of the two. Dave takes this on the chin for the most part but sometimes responds with sarcasm of similar nature to which Amy takes offense and Dave is forced to apologies. Amy does not apologise.
Dave will less frequently initiate sarcasm towards Amy in a similar vein but finds that this sarcasm draws an aggressive response, or Amy will feel that Dave has a problem with her, she will not take it on the chin and laugh with it.
Dave believes that when a negative event occurs it best to attempt to understand each other’s point of view so that the issue can be opened and forgotten and forgiven if appropriate or a discussion or agree to discuss at a later time if that is appropriate and there is a real issue.
Dave finds that instead of discussion, bad feeling and resentment builds instead of resolution and by the time discussion of any kind takes place, always initiated by Dave and to the generally negative indifference by Amy, because she has already come to her own conclusion with no discussion at all, and is unwilling to see any point of view other than her own. Dave reacts further more negatively because it seems like all hope is lost.
Point in question…
Miscommunication 1 week ago over something trivial is still not resolved now, an argument occurred over Dave making an “issue” over something small with same principle as paragraph 1. As a result Amy became hostile to Dave for an hour and was going to sleep without any feeling of affection, particularly important because this was a rare time that Amy did not have Baby. Dave wanted to deal with the miscommunication and explain that it was as such. Amy didn’t want to listen to anything at all and decided to latch onto Dave’s attempt to correct the problem and make it seem as if Dave is somehow acting unreasonably, which then becomes the focus of the issue, turning a miscommunication into a genuine issue/argument. Dave attempts to draw Amy’s attention back to the issue, but Amy then makes comments to make light of the fact that the minor issues has been discussed for ages and she hasn’t got the energy for it, instead of dealing with the actual original issue, causing a cycle of confusion for both parties.
The “issue” which wasn’t an issue now becomes a real issue of the fact that honest calm discussion is not possible going forward. When this issue is broached a day or two later, the discussion becomes about this “issue” and not the original one which isn’t an issue at all…Dave can see this, Amy cannot and talks more in terms of despair and overall doom of relationship. Dave doesn’t want to push it so attempts to not go too far as Amy clearly doesn’t see the big picture in his opinion and is unwilling or unable to see the root.
This results in Dave “putting on friendly front” to Amy when inside he is upset, the same is likely true for Amy. Neither are letting themselves go, Dave withdraws so as not to cause further tension towards Amy. Amy interprets this as Dave being “cold” and distant because he doesn’t care about her, furthering her belief that she is not cared about.


Okey....so, I'm not sure if all that makes sense as would need to write a book but I feel like I'm swimming around in the dark here...

Any advice of any description from anyone who picks up anything from this situation would be eternally appreciated

Thanks for reading, if anyone does :p



EDIT - Just to add, this whole "model" could be a template for every argument we have ever had when we were together previously. It basically just leaves me with a massive question mark of how to even broach a sensitive topic of any kind and it leaves her safely in the belief that "life really is only worth carrying on with for her son". As a bit more circumstancial detail, I have changed all negative qualities that I previously demonstrated, a lot of growing up has been done the past 2.5 years since we first split and have done more "man" things in past 3 weeks than I ever did over the whole 2 years before and partner is happy in that department (just in case any advice may be based on looking outside the described situation in that area).

I think at the end of the day we just need to learn how to talk to each other, when we have a disagreement or cause each other's emotional state to be affected negatively....if this could be resolved then peace would be ensuing.

...I just don't know how! lol

[basilandthyme]

Fillet, I'm finding your Analysis section hard to read (I skimmed it), so I'm just focusing on the part you wrote above that.

It seems to me that Amy isn't relationship material at present: She's got too much baggage and resentment and doom and gloom at present to be a good partner to you or anyone. I believe it's important to not focus on why she is like she is, but to simply focus on whether or not her current behaviour is acceptable to you.

You may feel awful if you choose to not make allowances for her past - but you must remember that finding a partner who's compatible with you should be your #1 priority.

[fillet]

Hi there, thanks for the response. Wasn't expecting anything so fast. That's quite a decisive response and much appreciated.

I was hoping that maybe some insight into why she has this "switch" could be seen as obviously I'm not impartial but have tried to be truthful in my assessment.

In terms of my scrawlings where discussing her interpretation that I have a problem analysing things. I suppose a breakdown of what I'm referring to would be the event of the "switch" when the icyness comes in...

1. I offended her somehow (later transpired that in the interchange I was "be-littling" (revealed about half an hour after we went to bed).
2. We went to bed with tension like the last few minutes in final of sporting event (didn't know why)
3. Amy deems that issue to small to talk about - but clearly big enough to cause a problem regarding our "connection".
4. Attempt ask what's wrong, response "nothing, just something small" - would not reveal what it was.
5. Further attempt ask what's wrong, response, "I don't want an argument" - this quote makes me boil as it insinuates I'm creating one when only want to diffuse (still don't know what's wrong).
6. My heart is sinking, my tone changes to one of hurt crossed with anger but relatively in control.
7. She responds with deflective condemnation of everything that we now are. "I knew this would get complicated", "You're acting bizarre", "What are you on about"...(she believes the problem is the here and now and that I won't let go and move on from the issue - and issue that even here still don't know what it is)

I suppose, and your post helped a lot here...I genuinely deep down don't know if I'm bonkers...or her! She is so adamant that the issue lies with me that I have to ask the question?

Specifically, the unwillingness to actually tell me what the issue was is very troubling and something I don't think is fair, in any circumstance - purely on the basis that it affected our dynamic and because I had no intent of malice at any point in the evening. So in her eyes I was expected to go to sleep with a smile on my face for something I didn't even know I'd done?...The problem is...I could be wrong, I just want to do what is right. I'm quite capable of changing my behaviour if shown that it isn't personal/I am in the wrong, b

Cheers again

[basilandthyme]

In the conversation you transcribed, I can't see that you did anything wrong. Personally, if I had a partner who would get offended over I-don't-know-what, I'd be ending things with them. Life is too short to bother with someone who gets bent out of shape over an innocent conversation.

I know you've asked why she might do this. But one thing I've learned is that we just do our heads in trying to understand why someone else does what they do. It's far better to ask ourselves "why do I stay?" or "Is this the type of relationship I want for myself?"

[fillet]

Thanks again for your further thoughts , makes sense.

[TablesandChairs]

How bad is her financial situation? If she's swimming in debt and trying to keep afloat, that will effect her mood; it's like having a weight on your shoulders all the time and everything seems worse than it is...minor grievances become issues, little things become mountains and so forth. Add to that a child whom she likely wants the best for and things get a bit doom and gloom.

I guess you have to understand the 'source' first and this can only be done if she tells you - so, ask her (not during or after an argument) but when things are relatively peaceful.

It's not worth fighting over such little things and I think if she was happy, she wouldn't be like she is so I suppose it'd be wise to seek ways to address what bothers her most in her life and how that can be improved.

[fillet]

This is exactly the situation TablesandChairs

I am much more fortunate than her from a financial perspective. We originally didn't intend to initiate another relationship but we got on so well. We discussed all the bad things both of us did previously in terms of one person doing something wrong, then the other reacting and so forth.

Lots of the things I didn't do were things like "being there", and commitment related. For her end, I felt that I was always walking on egg shells and could never make her happy (little did I realize back then that it was because of me not doing the things I should do).


Regardless...


We discussed all this stuff, she is in a terrible financial situation, she worries about being able to provide the things she thinks her son needs to be happy, she has no money to enjoy herself or anything to look forward to. The father of her child will not even see him...I feel for her from the bottom of my heart on these issues.

When we got talking about her situation a few weeks ago, she listed some things that she would like to do or get done that she could not do (this was before me making any kind of implication that I would do these things with her).

She mentioned a few things, some that just cost money and need no actual person to help, but some things that need actual commitment, since I am a very different person now I felt that I wanted to help her with these things...

Got her a provisional license, paint for son's room, spent few days clearing room and painting and some basic storage for it, got some shelves, arranged her some driving lessons, offer to look after son for an hour if she wants a small bit of time to herself, cooking meals etc etc etc. I've let her no in no uncertain terms that I want to help as best I can with anything at all.

The problem is that she hates accepting help and feels it is a sign of "weakness" do so. I expect she feels torn as to if she can accept anything from me. Also, since I now give me time as if I actually want to be there for example playing with her son, he has become attached to me and often asks her when I'm next coming over.

I think she feels it's all gone a bit too fast and I also feel this to some extent, but more for her sake than anything, for her the stakes/chips are much higher because she has a child.

She has opened up somewhat about her situation from an emotional perspective and I'm quite rational when we discuss it but she has a habit of sounding like nothing anyone can do can possibly make any difference ever.

I feel a little mislead when she talks like this, as I came to give things a second go in good faith and it's not really possible to work with such stone wall statements.

Having said that, I'm sure there is a way forward with this stuff and the right approach, it's just ever so hard not to come across like a patronising bull in a china shop when talking to her.

The issue that is currently here though is that her belief as a result of the argument blowing out of all proportion that we cannot have a relationship because we cannot have an argument. She is such a contradiction, only a couple of weeks ago she said that is one thing that is important to her, to be able to argue...

...I don't know which way to turn, deep down, I do love her but it would be enough for me if she could just feel there's something positive in the future. I don't know what to say or do though.

[TablesandChairs]

I was in a situation some years ago; my ex had left me with all our debts (and his) and I had just gotten my first job after Uni; I can't explain that over-burdened, sinking feeling well enough and luckily I wasn't in a relationship at the time because I don't think I would have been in the greatest moods. Add to that the fact that a lack of $ means not being able to do a lot of the things that would give you joy and you're both bored and broke.

I'd help her strategize financially - maybe indulge her in some 'time out' things (go for a massage, a movie, a hair cut...whatever), try to help her get things in order so she knows what $ is coming in, what's $ is going out and what to do with what is left, even if it's not much. When people are stuck in a rut, they find it hard to see any light at the end of the tunnel so it all looks bleak. At the same time, explain that you're there to help and get your relationship moving forward so you need her commitment to communication and not resorting to nastiness or sarcasm when under stress. Explain that she shouldn't be too proud to say 'I need help' and to look at the things you do for her/her child as a sign that you want things to work.

You might want to use what they call a 'strengths-based approach' in counselling - that is, people are so used to thinking about their deficits and being self-critical that they neglect to look at their strengths - is she a good mum? If so, she might need reminding of this. Sure, not having enough $ sucks, but what a child needs the most is a parent who loves them. I guess remind of what's going right so she can balance that with what might not be going so great.

If she's been let down a lot, remind her that you're with her for the long-haul, not just for now but you need her to be on the same page.

Good luck!

[fillet]

Thanks for that, this sounds about right in terms of understanding. The trouble is I've tried most of this already. She's a fantastic mum and full of love for her little one but she thinks that's just "normal".

She's not the type of person that believes in writing anything down and won't do that.

She's like a door and there's a place for a key somewhere, I can feel it, just can't see it.

At the moment I haven't seen her for a couple of days and sense that she's withdrawing from me, there's nearly no discussion. We text and she asks a polite how are you?.....It's very hard not to bite and say "not very good.....blah blah blah"...

I just want this to all be on the table, it really is nothing at all...which makes it feel even worse. :/ It was so warm a week or so ago and she told me that she felt happy for the first time in ages when we met again.