My Heart Says Stay With Her, but My Mind Wonders If I Should

[ManOnTheRun]

My girlfriend of 2 years has always been a complicated person. She’s very smart, genuine, funny, and we have awesome chemistry among other things. However, she’s also an admittedly excessive worrier. Up until recently, I never thought this self-described hyper-awareness (aka her worrying) could be the cause of the problems between us, but after a recent (and VERY emotional) talk we had, I am almost certain it has caused most of the tensions over the duration of our relationship, if not all. At the age where I am really only having relationships with the potential for marriage or a future, getting passed these differences and moving forward is very important to me. Here is how I got to where I am:

Our early days together were very passionate. For many months, we were almost inseparable, with an intense attraction that was impossible to ignore. In retrospect, she even commented back then on how unusual it was for her to become this emotionally invested in someone so soon. She claimed that, with other people before me, she had been accused of being aloof, withdrawn, and disconnected. But at least then, and for us, she was anything but. This is not to say we didn’t have little tiffs; we absolutely did. However, they were tiny annoyances amidst the all-consuming love affair we were in… the issues were never the focus – we focused on each and our connection.

Eventually something changed in her, I’d say after about 6-7 months. She began pulling away very, very gradually, and I sensed it right away. When I confronted her about this withdrawal, she acknowledged it right away, but reassured me it was no reflection of her feelings, only that she was trying not to ‘go too-fast too-soon’. She told me her love was as real and deep as ever, and I let things go on as they were. I didn’t resent her for the distance, I continued to love and respect her, and in my own mind I felt things were going great. But that didn't last…

Eventually, other things besides just the reduced time together started to surface. She began to get more critical, she was less affectionate, less close to me, etc. It actually reminded me of the person she described herself being with other guys. I tried to bring her back. I’d look deeply into her eyes, kiss her, and try to express my feeling like I did before; kind of re-kindle the flame. But it seemed like no use the vast majority of the time. She was just stand-offish now, cold, and frigid. After months and months of trying, I just couldn’t keep it up. I felt inadequate, unloved, and honestly ugly inside. This girl I gave my heart to seemed like she just didn’t feel the spark, so it seemed.

In contrast to when we first got together, the last year of our relationship has been on this same track. We don’t really share passion very often, there isn’t much intimacy, and it just doesn’t feel like a relationship to me – at least not the kind I want. Every so often though, maybe once every week or two, she'll say or do something very loving and in those moments I'm reminded how much she really does care for me. For the longest time, I thought the issue was me, partly due to the fact that she became very critical and ‘unloving’ for lack of a better word. What used to be long talks about our future, analyzing the various idiosyncrasies for a good laugh, and contemplating the nature of the universe soon became (from her end) comments predominantly focused on my flaws, the potential problems between us, and the so-called ‘red flags’ she’d found. I thought to myself: “I must be getting less attractive to her, I must not be the man she wants, I must not measure up”.

But then there was the emotional talk we had. It was one of many we’ve had periodically, and they usually center around how unfulfilled SHE feels. She’ll tell me that something is ‘missing’ between us, that she doesn’t know if she’ll be able to have a life with me, etc. She’ll then talk at length about our supposedly incompatible traits, why we’d never be good together, and how it all seems like we should just break up. Trouble is…it’s all NONSENSE! For every issue she claims we have, I can come up with countless examples of how it’s not true. As I recalled these facts and explained them to her, she stopped, thought to herself, and then said, “You’re right… that’s true”. Back and forth I will go coming up with all the times I’ve displayed behavior contrary to what she claims, and over and over she’ll see my point, and agree that she was wrong. Then she'll insist I stay over, cuddle with me, and so on.

This is why I feel that it’s all about her general uncertainty and worrisome nature, and NOT about us being incompatible. She’s so doubtful about her life in general: work, friends, all relationships, and I think she ends up instinctively looping me into it. It’s as though she refuses to trust that she and I really can or should be happy. The effect of this doubtfulness on her part extends beyond just how she assesses our compatibility; it plays into how little intimacy we have now, too. I think that, because she’s in a constant state of doubt, it’s impossible for her to feel close me or anyone on a romantic level, at least for an extended period of time. This, in turn, makes me apprehensive about approaching her with passion and affection because I know how doubtful she is about us, even if the doubts are totally unfounded.

It almost feels like I'm at an impasse here…

ON THE ONE HAND, I love this girl with all my heart, and if her personal issues and doubts weren’t so constantly projected in my direction, if they didn’t so deeply affect how she treats and respects me, I probably would have proposed by now.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I think about the future and it worries me. Marrying or even continuing with someone who would constantly question everything so much that it changes how they treat someone seems wrong and unsustainable. But I know… I KNOW she wants to be with me. She is the sort of person who doesn’t just do things arbitrarily.

My plan going forward was to just continue being strong, to use my new-found insight from our recent discussion to build our relationship back more close to what it once was: close, passionate, and loving. I think it’s healthy to have doubts, everyone has some doubts, but I feel like if she could get to a point where they didn’t consume her mind and influence her behavior so much we could be extremely happy together.

I’d be very interested in hearing anyone’s perspective on this.

Thanks.

[christinels1]

Hello,
I enjoyed reading your very well thought out post. It made perfect sense to me. I am a female, a bystander, reading about a male having this conversation with himself, I want to leave you with some thoughts. I'm sure you have thought about this....but what if she had a past experience with a relationship where in the end was bad. Bad in the sense it would be sensitive to your particular case because of the trust. Maybe she doesn't trust herself. Maybe she went through some issues in the past that she just put by the way side and in the end she ended up with a personal problem herself. For example, I personally am going through some similar issues. I am aware that in my situation it is possible that if I continue to let myself feel the way I do and not do anything about it, that in the end I might change my outlook on relationships. I recently found out my bf has a secret life. We are both very open and honest about it all now. He knows I know and we work through it together. His secret is something that he personally needs to work on before trying to make our relationship better. I believe that one has to be happy with self before they can make someone else happy. Knowing what I know is pushing me away from him and he is aware of it. We met over the internet, fell in love fast, tell each other we are meant to be together. Being open with your significant other is key along with honesty. At first he wasn't honest, but he was scared. My point is, even though I'm unhappy with what is going on with us, I keep going through my head with different thoughts. I honestly can say he is the one for me. Never have either one of us connected with someone so close and whole heartedly. It's amazing. If your girl is pushing away, and you feel like she is the one, don't let her go. I'm not giving up until I have nothing else in myself, I made that promise to him and myself. He is now seeking counseling. I told him let's see if that helps. I'll be here every step of the way. Have you maybe thought of something like that for the two of you, or maybe just advising it to her. It's amazing how confiding in someone else can help with issues. She might have something she is afraid of because of the past and let her know that it is okay. I hope this helped, and let me know your thoughts.
good luck
c

[ManOnTheRun]

Thanks for reading and responding.

To your point, yes I do feel past experiences and her to-date 'lessons-learned' play a part in this, as likely does her inquisitive and fleeting nature. She is like water, always flowing and changing, but in a way still there, taking different forms and speeds; quite the enigma.

One thing I do know is that our relationship is at least as long as any of her previous ones... perhaps the longest. I cannot be sure because she never gave me a count of years or months, but when commenting on her 'longest' one, she claimed it had been "a year and some change". Perhaps one reason for that is because she views life in general as a fluctuating experience and she wants to experience all she can. Perhaps, now, she feels she is running out of things to learn, or at least it is slowing down. And, to that point, maybe in the past she ended up leaving potentially good relationships because she just got to disenchanted to stick around. Her attention span is admittedly very short.

I am definitely concerned about this happening. I fear that despite how great we can be for eachother, the way she challenges everything in her life is going to drive us apart. She doesn't seem capable of consistently enjoying another human being. Again for this reason, I wonder about the future, marriage, kids, and how any of that would ever work with me or anyone else if she is in this state of mind.

Up until recently, she actually was doing therapy, but I believe she recently stopped. I'm not sure 100% what the therapy was for, but I do know she's been very stressed about her weight, her career, and her social life. This naturally comes out in anger at times toward me, and in some doses I am OK with that; I cannot expect her to ALWAYS tone down her life troubles just for my sake. However, it's when those troubles lead to personal criticisms about me that I get upset. It is those fights that hurt me... where she seems so, so unhappy, and so pessimistic about what we are.

In my opinion: she's scared of settling down. She's frightened of being 'locked' into something with someone else, scared about hurting people, being hurt, making the wrong choices, saying the wrong things, etc. I think that is why she drinks a bit more than maybe she should: to tone down her insecurities.

What I would truly love is if she could just remember what it once was like, back when we first met when the silly, inconsequential tiffs didn't matter, where not EVERY conversion needed to be taken seriously or analyzed. She's laugh and smile and joke with me, she'd be silly and light-hearted... I really miss that. Now, it takes SO MUCH to get her mind off of the negativity, and as her partner not being able to do that makes me feel awful.

And I am in your same boat on leaving: I don't want to leave because I know we could be amazing. I just am at a loss for how to go about it.

[Wakeup]

She sounds like a "love avoidant" (are you a "love addict?) She's at the very least seems to be someone who self-sabotages for fear that you will abandon her which is a trait in someone I wouldn't want to fall in love with.

Your gut is telling you something so listen to it and get out now while you're still young enough to find someone without these issues that she is not getting over anytime soon and without professional help. Her longest relationship is a year and change and the men she has been with have all suffered what you are suffering from while with her. Love yourself enough to know that you can't change her and therefore you should leave now and quit flogging a dead horse... or at least one that isn't going to change it's current behaviour.

Here's a link to Love Addict/Avoidant I mention above.

[url=http://www.drjanicecaudill.com/love-addiction.html]McKinney, TX Psychologist Janice Caudill, Certified Sex Addiction Therapist - Love Addiction and Love Avoidance[/url]

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BTW: Stop wishing it was like it was in the beginning... that was the honeymoon stage and no matter who you are with, that stage will simmer down as your relationship time together lengthens and remains at a low, steady boil.

That being said, dating is to find out if who you are in lust and infatuated with is going to make you happy when that honeymoon stage has ended and you start to see who you're with "warts and all." She is NOT who you hoped she would be and to stay and hope she'll change is folly to the nth degree. Sorry.

Adding:

you feel like she is the one, don't let her go. I'm not giving up until I have nothing else in myself, I made that promise to him and myself.

Please don't do what the poster about is doing to herself. That is codependency not love and its a form of addiction and caretaking which is the dysfunctional opposite of care giving You shouldn't be with someone you need to change. You should find and love someone that makes you happy and not second guess if you should be with them or not or if they change something about themselves.. you should be with someone and be happy just the way they are. If you can't be then that's your cue to exit stage left.

You should NEVER give up self to be with someone, ever.

[ManOnTheRun]

Wakeup, that was a good read, thanks for sending.

To answer your questions, I do display some of the love addiction traits mentioned in the article, but paradoxically enough in my last relationship I actually was more of the love avoidant.

As far as her behavior is concerned, it's kind of hard for me to say because it seems like the avoidance part is based on the thought process and not the actions. If her actions during the 'bad times' is intentional, then sure, but there is also the possibility that this is just how she is.

What I didn't get from that article was what to actually do about it. Both addition and avoidance sound bad, and therefore something we would both benefit from working on fixing. I'm not really sure how to do that whether it's for the avoidance or the addition side of things.

[Wakeup]

What to do about it? You work on you personal boundaries and strive to overcome your codependency and your tendency to want to fix/caretake/change/control and you learn to love yourself enough to realize that someone who avoids intimacy has a deep seated issue that you cannot fix and that to stay will whittle away at the essence that is you until you're depressed, unmotivated, miserable yet you continue on in the dysfunction because its become an addiction to the drama and that person.

You will NOT get back the person you fell in love with. You can not make her do things that even her therapist has failed (thus far) to accomplish. Love is NEVER enough to keep two people happy. There is so much more then love that keeps people together happily and functioning without major issues and heartache.

Your gut is telling you to leave but you've already become addicted to her being in your life due to the intensity of those first months... that's how love avoidants work... they make you feel euphoric and then they become freaked out over the emotional intensity and they withdraw which is like taking heroin away from a junkie and making them go cold turkey.

There are several sites you can get help with... YOU / Not her; she has to get her own help and want to overcome. (the very fact you didn't enquiry about why she was in therapy is a huge tell about you and your lack of personal boundaries. Anyone who cared about themselves and their own emotional health would want to know to protect themselves from the ramifications of her isms).

Google:
"codependency"
"codependent relationships"
"caretaking vs caregiving"
"the importance of personal boundaries"
"white knight syndrome"
"personal boundaries, how to protect self"

If you can't or won't seek your own therapy with a good counselor proficient in codependency issues then start at that list, google and read and go to your library or local book store and search the self-help section regarding those subjects above. (and do all that after you have left her. Don't stay and expect to have her read and change because as said before you only have control over yourself, no one else and talking and thinking she'll change without doing a whole lot of psychological help with the aid of a professional is useless and moot)

If you don't get yourself away from her then you will be old and broken while still there and complaining that you don't feel loved, you get betrayed on as she seeks out that intensity again from someone else only to withdraw when it gets to deep, there are a myriad of other negative things that can and more likely then not will happen in your union if you continue on.

If you do anything.. Remember and know without a doubt that you will not fix this to where you want the relationship with her to be. She needs therapy to help her with her romantic relationship pattern.

I'll add that she will pull the same shit on any children you have as well if you're too weak to leave and too codependent to realize you can't change her. I DO wonder what she went through in her own childhood that made her be who she is today.

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Adding: BTW:

To answer your questions, I do display some of the love addiction traits mentioned in the article, but paradoxically enough in my last relationship I actually was more of the love avoidant.

This is not being a true "love avoidant." We all play that game during the dating process if the two people dating are not on the same page...(the one in love tries harder while the one not feeling it distances themselves until they actually get the ballzzz to end it. Often times we hear of them just disappearing) If what you're gf is currently going through is simply that you're not "on the same page" (highly doubtful it's that simple since she has a pattern that keeps repeating itself) then that is yet another good reason for the two of you to part ways. If she's not there by now, then no matter what you do to disrespect yourself and try and force her to "be there" it's not going to be working out in your favour.

Do you see?

[christinels1]

Wakeup, I really do understand what you had to say, and I think you are right. It's so true. My mother was very much a codependent in every relationship, maybe that's where I got it. The same points that you went over, same thoughts go through my head. It is up to me to make what I want in life. Time will tell all, and I know that I can shorten the time if need be. At this moment in may relationship, I'm not ready to give up. This man I am with wants to change, knows what he does is not bettering himself. We both agree that he needs this therapy for himself first and for most. I'm still here because he is first my friend and my companion. If he is willing to change to better himself, I don't want to just walk away from him. That's a great step in the right direction. I want him to do this for himself. I will know with time and patience that I'm willing to give, if in the end I will be comfortable again, and I'm okay with that. I am fully aware. Everything I am sharing with you random people here, he is aware of! There are no secrets. I am still a happy person everyday I wake up. I am not putting my life on hold because he needs help and advice, I am patient because I want to be. Everyone has different reasons for what they choose to do. If one is content with what they are doing, then so be it, no? But I really do appreciate the insight!

[Wakeup]

If one is content with what they do then that's up to you. Op is not content with feeling unloved. If one is content with sharing their life with a child molester, say... does that make it acceptable? I'd say "NO." To enable is not an answer that helps anyone and in fact is quite selfish of the enabler if it means that the one with "secrets" doesn't get the help they need due to said enabling.

I hope that you are not so codependent that you give up yourself for him. This isn't your thread but I'm curious to know just how long you've been dating this guy and why you wouldn't walk away before you loose yourself in his issues so that they become all consuming and sick-making for you.

I fully support people who are married and their other half needs help with some issue(s) that have developed but to continue on with someone who is already issued and hasn't done ANYTHING to fix that issue(s) prior to trying to form a relationship is quite another. How old is he and how long has his "secret" been his without doing anything about it?

I'll also say that it's hard to give advise on your situation (other then the codependency issue) when what his issue is has not been revealed. Not expecting you to reveal it if you don't want to... just saying. However: if his issue/secret is something that he's been into or suffering from for his entire life or since he's been old enough to realize that it's not something that most people would readily accept then he's going to have a hard time over-coming and/or not relapsing.

I wish you good luck.

[christinels1]

I understand. When you said" To enable is not an answer that helps anyone and in fact is quite selfish of the enabler if it means that the one with "secrets" doesn't get the help they need due to said enabling". I also thought about this. I thought about leaving and giving him space to work this out on his own, so that way I'm not here to see every move he makes. Make him really want it for himself. We have been dating for a year and four months. We met over the internet. Yes, this issue is a long time issue, since he was 18 years old he told me. He is 27, I am 26. I realize he might relapse. Every time he has a thought about doing wrong, I told him to share it with me. He actually does share. I don't know what to think of that yet. But I wonder if him sharing his thoughts is actually going to help. In a way, I feel like if he shares then he might think," Oh, since she knows now, it's ok"?! You know what I mean? I share this information with my mother and She points out everything you have pointed out. I am aware. But to be honest I am not sure what to do at this point. To be there for him, or to not. I love him with all my heart, and I truly believe he does too. I understand it's ok to let go as well. But I do not want to get out yet. Maybe I am holding on to something that isn't there any more, I am not sure though.

[Wakeup]

It would be so much more healthy for you to find a man that does not need to be changed. Finding someone to love just the way they are should be everyone's objective. Not quickly leaving a union that is still basically in the honeymoon stage (that young) that you've come to discover needs work to remain happy in sounds more like codependency and fear of being alone. Its not healthy love but rather an addiction (to the person and to the need to caretake) in itself and as unhealthy as any addiction to drugs/alcohol/porn/gambling or any other thing that consumes ones life.

You are caretaking him which is the dysfunctional opposite of caregive.

Here is a link on that:

[url=http://www.expressivecounseling.com/codependency-caretaking/]Codependency: Caretaking vs. Caregiving | Expressive Counseling[/url]



Sorry, Op... this is getting off of your situation and onto Christines. If you want to continue, Christine then your own thread would be warranted.

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One more thing, Christine. How can you say you're "content" if you don't trust him? Trust is THE corner stone to all happy, healthy and successful relationships of ALL kinds, not just romantic ones but it is doubly important to have in romantic dynamics. Don't fool yourself.

[ManOnTheRun]

A couple of questions/comment for your WakeUp:

1. "You work on you personal boundaries and strive to overcome your codependency and your tendency to want to fix/caretake/change/control and you learn to love yourself enough to realize that someone who avoids intimacy has a deep seated issue that you cannot fix and that to stay will whittle away at the essence that is you until you're depressed, unmotivated, miserable yet you continue on in the dysfunction because its become an addiction to the drama and that person."

I'm assuming by this you alone, correct?

2. "You will NOT get back the person you fell in love with. You can not make her do things that even her therapist has failed (thus far) to accomplish. Love is NEVER enough to keep two people happy. There is so much more then love that keeps people together happily and functioning without major issues and heartache."

This is correct, I cannot make her do things she used to, or feel how she used to. However, what I am having a hard time grasping is the existence of the honeymoon stage altogether. Yes, you also mentioned that eventually what love-avoidant people do is back-off because of fear or intimacy, but given the intimacy WAS there and her behavior now is that of withdrawal, why does it make sense to leave and just do everything separately as opposed to stay and try to better eachother? I always here people saying you should "support" your partner and be there for them, and this seems like running away. I suppose I'd see this differently if she was hitting me or something, but if I care about someone, I'm not sure where this line needs to be drawn. I don't expect relationships to be easy.

3. "Your gut is telling you to leave but you've already become addicted to her being in your life due to the intensity of those first months... that's how love avoidants work... they make you feel euphoric and then they become freaked out over the emotional intensity and they withdraw which is like taking heroin away from a junkie and making them go cold turkey."

So they get scared of the intimacy? Why?

4. You also spoke about therapy both for myself and for her, and I am already in therapy, I am also reading a number of self-improvement books to help with this. One I just finished was called "No More Mr.Nice Guy", and it was very helpful.

5. Also, I DO know what she went to therapy for, but as she explained it it was for stress and trying to figure her life out. I didn't talk to her intimately or specifically about what she and her therapist said to eachother.

6. You mentioned something else about "being content with the way a person is right now, just the way they are". This to me is another grey area. It feels like a fact of life what we always push to be better, improve ourselves, be the 'best versions' of ourselves... is it not reasonable to assume that anyone I date or see romantically will always have their own issues going on? Won't every relationship have SOME tension? What exactly is the barometer for these kinds of things. If I just run away every time something bad happens, it feels like I'll have a lonely life. I'm not saying that our issues are that simple, but again it a question of thresholds.

[Wakeup]

A couple of questions/comment for your WakeUp:

1. "You work on you personal boundaries and strive to overcome your codependency and your tendency to want to fix/caretake/change/control and you learn to love yourself enough to realize that someone who avoids intimacy has a deep seated issue that you cannot fix and that to stay will whittle away at the essence that is you until you're depressed, unmotivated, miserable yet you continue on in the dysfunction because its become an addiction to the drama and that person."

I'm assuming by this you alone, correct?

2. "You will NOT get back the person you fell in love with. You can not make her do things that even her therapist has failed (thus far) to accomplish. Love is NEVER enough to keep two people happy. There is so much more then love that keeps people together happily and functioning without major issues and heartache."

This is correct, I cannot make her do things she used to, or feel how she used to. However, what I am having a hard time grasping is the existence of the honeymoon stage altogether. Yes, you also mentioned that eventually what love-avoidant people do is back-off because of fear or intimacy, but given the intimacy WAS there and her behavior now is that of withdrawal, why does it make sense to leave and just do everything separately as opposed to stay and try to better eachother? I always here people saying you should "support" your partner and be there for them, and this seems like running away. I suppose I'd see this differently if she was hitting me or something, but if I care about someone, I'm not sure where this line needs to be drawn. I don't expect relationships to be easy.

3. "Your gut is telling you to leave but you've already become addicted to her being in your life due to the intensity of those first months... that's how love avoidants work... they make you feel euphoric and then they become freaked out over the emotional intensity and they withdraw which is like taking heroin away from a junkie and making them go cold turkey."

So they get scared of the intimacy? Why?

4. You also spoke about therapy both for myself and for her, and I am already in therapy, I am also reading a number of self-improvement books to help with this. One I just finished was called "No More Mr.Nice Guy", and it was very helpful.

5. Also, I DO know what she went to therapy for, but as she explained it it was for stress and trying to figure her life out. I didn't talk to her intimately or specifically about what she and her therapist said to eachother.

6. You mentioned something else about "being content with the way a person is right now, just the way they are". This to me is another grey area. It feels like a fact of life what we always push to be better, improve ourselves, be the 'best versions' of ourselves... is it not reasonable to assume that anyone I date or see romantically will always have their own issues going on? Won't every relationship have SOME tension? What exactly is the barometer for these kinds of things. If I just run away every time something bad happens, it feels like I'll have a lonely life. I'm not saying that our issues are that simple, but again it a question of thresholds.

I had a bit long reply for each item but for some reason it logged me out before I hit submit so I'm just going to say that I think you should talk to your therapist about her and yourself and how she has, once again withdrawn from the man she has chosen to date. He/she (hopefully) will help you to understand better that you can better yourself but it's up to her (not you) for her to better herself.

Be careful you don't confuse "support" with "enabling"

Good luck to you.