Religion

[Hugo Pickle]

I can't believe that you would say that matter and energy are the same, and then go on to say that only energy is the byproduct of matter. Saying that energy can be created from matter and then saying that the reverse is not true is absolute hypocrisy and a pathetically flawed argument. You obviously do not understand the relationship of matter and energy. They are one and the same, which is why you can get energy from matter, the opposite must also be true.

Eienstein spent the rest of his life looking for the unified field theory, the theory which will explain energy waves in all forms and thus unify the beginning of his work which was E=MC^2. Notice the equals sign, that is the beauty of the equation. All that is needed to study how energy creates matter and matter in its smallest forms which is what the past 60 years of particle physics has been all about.

All you want to do is argue about nothing. How pointless is that? You know, people with true intelligence do not argue about things just to argue about them. They certainly do not make ridiculously childish arguments about subjects in a manner absolutely contradicting themselves and displaying their utter lack of knowledge in that which they are even attempting to argue about.

You should also know not to quote an expert unless you provide the source document (a scholarly verifiable document) I guess you’ve never been to college. They teach this in English comp one and require it in ever higher level course. But of course with such a utterly flawed starting point anyway I should not expect any professionalism in your posts on this topic.

Why I waste my time on some of you people i do not know.

[Hugo Pickle]

The big bang theory does not state that everything came from nothing, man, don't you people read before arguing about things?

The big bang theory is simple. Take all the matter/energy in the universe and draw it in one place. Then blow it up again and start all over. The big bang theory is a cycle, not a static event. Thus matter and energy has always been present in it except for the start of the cycle, which is why we are probing deep space still looking for more clues to the origin of the universe.

But no where did anyone ever state that the universe came from nothing. Just a singularity of matter/energy that became unstable.

[Mish]

They do not say that absolutly nothing existed. In fact all matter was mathemtically accounted for. The universe was in a hot and dense state prior to the big bang.

Actually they do say that absolutely nothing existed

The Big Bang and matter formation

Simplified model of the Big Bang and the Universe's subsequent expansion
The Primordial Age - from 0 years to 379,000 years

The Planck Epoch: 10-43 seconds
The Universe, which includes time, space, and everything in it, begins with the Big Bang 13.7 ± 0.2 billion years ago.

[url]http://www.answers.com/topic/timeline-of-the-big-bang[/url]

Big Bang Theory suggests that time, space and matter have a beginning.

[shh!]

I can't believe that you would say that matter and energy are the same, and then go on to say that only energy is the byproduct of matter. Saying that energy can be created from matter and then saying that the reverse is not true is absolute hypocrisy and a pathetically flawed argument. You obviously do not understand the relationship of matter and energy. They are one and the same, which is why you can get energy from matter, the opposite must also be true.

Eienstein spent the rest of his life looking for the unified field theory, the theory which will explain energy waves in all forms and thus unify the beginning of his work which was E=MC^2. Notice the equals sign, that is the beauty of the equation. All that is needed to study how energy creates matter and matter in its smallest forms which is what the past 60 years of particle physics has been all about.

All you want to do is argue about nothing. How pointless is that? You know, people with true intelligence do not argue about things just to argue about them. They certainly do not make ridiculously childish arguments about subjects in a manner absolutely contradicting themselves and displaying their utter lack of knowledge in that which they are even attempting to argue about.

You should also know not to quote an expert unless you provide the source document (a scholarly verifiable document) I guess you’ve never been to college. They teach this in English comp one and require it in ever higher level course. But of course with such a utterly flawed starting point anyway I should not expect any professionalism in your posts on this topic.

Why I waste my time on some of you people i do not know.

Who are you responding to? (Please, dear god, let it be indigosoul. I love to start the day laughing.)

[Hugo Pickle]

Sorry Mishiayan, a gravitational singularity is not nothing, it is all the matter/energy in the universe condensed into a single point.

Taken from the source that you provided

Stephen Hawking has theorized that the events of the Big Bang (the expansion of a singularity into the current space time continuum) can be seen as a reversal of the events that occur in a black hole, where space-time condenses into a singularity.

Energy and matter are the same, and energy cannot be created or destroyed, which is why the singularity is part of the big bang theory. this is very basic and fundamental to physics. This is part of the laws of the conservation of energy, which is why theories must include it.

[Cybog]

[Hugo Pickle]

yes, your right cybog, I just couldn't help it. The premise of their argument is so contrary to basic physics that it cried out to me to say something. It's like someone trying to argue to you that a car is really a motorcycle. Its just so absurd that I had to blurt out basic facts.

I tried hard not to get involved with this one, but the exclusion of the basic truth compelled me.

[Cybog]

It boggles the mind that people could actually come up with 16 pages without realizing that neither party in this "discussion" are going to budge. It's like a Nazi trying to convince a Jew that the Holocaust was "just and fair". Do you think either person is going to change their opinions? ESPECIALLY via an internet forum?

[indigosoul]

yes, your right cybog, I just couldn't help it. The premise of their argument is so contrary to basic physics that it cried out to me to say something. It's like someone trying to argue to you that a car is really a motorcycle. Its just so absurd that I had to blurt out basic facts.

I tried hard not to get involved with this one, but the exclusion of the basic truth compelled me.

If you are a physicist, MiniDill, then I scrub toilets for a living (not that there's anything wrong with that!).

Cybog, you are right. Tho actually, scientists do this thing all the time. Particularly the way Mish, OV, and myself do it (tho theres often alcohol and a blackboard involved).

I'm done. Really, promise.

[Mish]

Sorry Mishiayan, a gravitational singularity is not nothing, it is all the matter/energy in the universe condensed into a single point.

So you are saying then that time, space and in fact the universe did exist in the form of a gravitational singularity at this stage and therefore did not have a beginning as argued by the Big Bang theory? (Let's break it down A. A gravitational singularity needs to occupy space to be considered any form of matter/energy B. It needs to have a formation timeline, the singularity must have been created out of something over a period of time. C. Universe which is made out of matter as you argued before appears then to have never been created, since matter (I.e. the universe) always existed... Thus if you agree that A, B, and C above are correct you disagree with the Big Bang Theory which explains that time, space and matter were created by the Big Bang and did not exist prior.)

Cybog, sorry to carry on like this. Bluevette touched a very sensitive subject matter. My aim is very simple, to convince people to accept the fact that we as human species know very little and require faith just like Religious people to believe even in the strictest dsciplenes that we have, such as science. I think this argument is very obvious and in itself requires no further agruments. But if you tell me to stop this nonsense then I shall obey your words of the law and cease it at once

P.S. Cybog, it maybe that not all arguments require to have a winner. Some arguments exist for mutual understanding, you learn the most about a person's point of view when they put forth proof for their ways of thinking.

[Hugo Pickle]

First off Mish, these are not my thoughts, they are well established theories of physics from Eienstein, Steven Hawking, and many others. The singularity and whether it is an object of immeasurable mass is not important, what is important is that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Physics has this as a law, not just a theory. This proves that the statement in the bible that God has always been and always will be can in a way be proven by science.

The universe as you put it may only be the beginning or even just a part of a greater whole. The big bang, is just a theory of the creation of our universe. The greater picture here is that there may be other universes that we cannot see. The big bang may be happening all over the “void” as some put it. As for a beginning, who knows. The reason this is important to religion is that the wording of the bible does go in line with science from a certain perspective. Remember that what is written in the bible is often misinterpreted. Remember that Christ was not seen as the Son of God for this reason. He fulfilled all the prophecies, but not the way that they thought they would be fulfilled. Bible literalists should always remember this.

I believe as Einstein did, that being that God is real and science is simply the account of our current observations of the greater truth of Gods Existence. As Christ said, If you do not understand the ways of the world, then how are you to understand the ways of Heaven. At one time a large portion of the world worshiped the sun because they scientifically understood that the sun was the reason that the earth was possible in a physical sense. Imagine how foolish they would seem today when shown a picture from the hubble telescope. These same people would instead worship the “bang” as it is the currently perceived scientific source of our universe and accordingly our sun.

All that science (which is simply our observations of the universe around us) has proved is that the universe and all that is in it and possibly beyond it is still as the Bible (Word of God) has stated thousands of years ago, beyond imagination. Anyone who foolishly looks to the literal meaning of words to relate them to current scientific observations will always be left in the dark. Science has never and will never dis-prove the existence of God, neither has science ever or will ever prove the existence of God. This is because faith is required. Remember, life on earth is a test, a test of the faithful. Christ likened some things as the final test, implying that life itself is just a test. It is to see who will and who will not have faith through understanding and do as God commands. That is the meaning of life. Because faith is part of the test, science will never be able to prove, nor disprove God’s existence.

This is my last post on this topic, period.

[Mish]

Okay, none obviously know and have proof of this so let's just leave it at that

Thus ends the discussion about which one requires more faith science or religion?

Do we now all agree that each one of us (Including myself) know very little and are foolish if we do not accept each other's faiths (Which do not break the law) or if we do not tolerate them?

[indigosoul]

...And so it came to pass...

...that the non-believers got to the point where even THEY began to pray to their Lord, Cybog, that the thread be closed lest more unsuspecting users get caught up in the temporal/argumentative feedback loop that was forming...spiralling down into infinity...never to been seen again...

And the Lord came down, handed out 2 Tylenol to everyone and said.....?

[misombra]

god kill me now.

[Mish]

But I am God said God (Obviously talking to Godself)